+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Quire 13 (/thread-146.html)
Quire 13 - VViews - 22-01-2016
Hello everyone,
A few months ago I made a wordpress to share my views of Quire 13.
It's just one page, but here's a link in case anyone is interested:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As I explain on that page, it may be that Glen Claston or Nick Pelling had come to some of the same conclusions before, but I never read any explanation of what their exact reordering was or the exact reasons they gave for it beyond the connected tubs on two of the folios.
I don't have the courage to trawl through old VMS list archives in search of their exchanges on the subject, if they're even on there. If someone has a link to them I'd love to read them.
If my observations have been made by others before, I'll be happy to edit and give credit as necessary, or even delete the whole thing if its entirely redundant.
I'm not really sure whether to post this here or in some other section. I put it here because my views are based on illustrations. Admins, feel free to move it, or tell me how to do it.
RE: Quire 13 - Anton - 22-01-2016
Hi VViews,
The subject of your thread is in between imagery and binding, so let it stay here.
I think that the major objection to the order that you propose would be that if we arrange folios in that order then we would have two quires instead of one single quire. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s the scheme of how the quire is currently binded. If spatial aptitude does not fail me, it seems to me that your proposed order cannot be binded in one quire, can it?
RE: Quire 13 - VViews - 22-01-2016
Hello Anton!
Indeed that is exactly what is being claimed, both in Nick Pelling's book, his original posts and in my discussion.
The evidence, shown by Nick Pelling, about the connecting tubs between 78v and 81r leaves little doubt that the binding we see in this quire is not the binding that there was originally.
The idea that quire 13 was originally two quires is apparently Glen Claston's.
I came to the same conclusion, as I explain in the page I linked, and further grouped and ordered the folios based on the reasons I have presented there.
For all these reasons, I strongly do believe that there were originally two quires in what is now Quire 13.
RE: Quire 13 - Anton - 22-01-2016
OK, did not understand that by parts you mean two actually different quires.
RE: Quire 13 - VViews - 23-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 11:16 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, did not understand that by parts you mean two actually different quires.
Thank you Anton, your comment shows me that I need to reword that page a bit. Will edit it so that it will be clearer!
RE: Quire 13 - Searcher - 24-12-2020
It is quite not easy to determine sequence of the the pages in quire 13, so I'll think about it more meticulously, but for now I can share my observations on the quire:
1) I think quire 13 can be divided into 3 groups:
- a. large pools (?) - f75r-v, f78r-v, f81r-v, f84r-v
- b. movement of fluids in the physiological system - f77r-v;
- c. some processes involving two main substances and, possibly, with an additional component or several ones – f76v, f79r-v, f80r-v, f82r-v, f83r-v.
3) the substances may be depicted in different states:
- a. based on visual perception, I suppose the blue substance is depicted in two states: liquid and gaseous;
- b. Also, based on image analysis, I came to the conclusion that the green substance doesn’t exist in a gaseous state, but most likely can only be a liquid.
5) gaseous state of the blue substance is depicted in a cloud-like wavy pattern, which also prevails at the top of the pages.
6) the lower part of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contains an unique image of a pool with a green substance with wavy edges. Since this figure is shown at the bottom, I don’t think that it depicts a gaseous state, but there is a certain airiness in it. I think this may indicate seething.
I also have an important note about the sequence and direction of the pictures on the page in the quire 13. Figures are not arranged in order of reading the text. If the substance goes down in any way, then the drawing must be viewed from top to bottom, if it rises up, then the drawing or group of drawings must be viewed from bottom to top, therefore, when turning the page, it is necessary to take into account which image was the last on the previous page, while it is not easy. Sometimes it's even incomprehensible whether the action takes place from right to left or from left to right. As it turns out, finding correspondence between two pages of the same folio is much easier than finding drawing relationships between different folios.
For example, the illustration with the green pool at the bottom of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is consistent with the drawing of the bottom green pool on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Discard all additional details and leave only the green pool and two nymphs on the sides. I think this is the basis. In both pictures, the nymph on the right is in a barrel with blue content, and the nymph on the left is in a barrel with green content.
I believe they are one and the same, only at different stages, depicting different processes.
I wrote in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Quote:pay attention that the nymph to the right holds a tube with the two outlets at the top, the color of its content is mixed blue and green. And now look look at the two rainbows to the left from that nymph ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ), they contain blue and green, not mixed, but separated. Yes, the outlets are not visualized here, but something clearly flows from them. I won't be surprised if these two rainbows are the continuation of the top of the tube to the right.Details of the lower figure You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - others. The green pool is filled with nymphs, some of them small, others large. On the left side, we see a “cloud-like column”, and the hint nymph next to him raises her hands up, hinting that something is rising, on the right we see a pattern of lines resembling a flow, and here the nymph next to him makes a hint to us that it is flowing down as her hands are down. The most difficult thing is to understand whether the two large nymphs in the foreground are the same nymphs as the ones behind, only after the completion of the process, or they are other nymphs that are there at the same time.
RE: Quire 13 - R. Sale - 24-12-2020
Regarding the nymphs of F82v, I see an interesting structure holding a group of bathing nymphs. They are arranged in two rows of eight. These are the Nymphs of Abacus. In the top row, the third nymph from the left has a raised hand and creates a separation. In the second row, the sixth nymph does the same.
So, three to the left and six to the left makes nine. And there is no more traditional interpretation for nine bathing nymphs than the nine Muses. But why are they arranged like this, as if they were hidden in a crowd. Especially when a clear representation of nine nymphs in a pool is presented elsewhere in the VMs?
The Muses are subjects of various representations, Muses dancing, Muses standing around a fountain, etc. However, given the simultaneous restrictions of 'bathing' and 'something' near the C-14 dates, the only serious candidate at present is Christine de Pizan. And the representation of the nine Muses bathing included in the Book of the Queen is well known.
The actual text (Le Livre Du Chemin De Long Estude) exists in several versions and so does the illustration. There is the pink / red variation, similar to the one above.
Although acquired by his grandfather or father, as it turns out, there are two versions of this text, two differing versions of the illustration of nine Muses bathing, in the library of Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy. The library contains books produced by Christine herself. These are in the KBR Library.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Though they are different, both Burgundy illustrations share a more natural - outdoors appearance than the original example above.
The page is part of a sequence.
f79v Melusine and a companion animal that might represent the Golden Fleece. Neither is 'my' identification, but I agree. Both reference Burgundy.
f80v The VMs critter as Agnus Dei. Not my suggestion, but I agree. I believe a structural match for the VMs representation can be found in the Apocalypse of S. Jean, which shows a lamb and droplets (of blood) *separated by* a cosmic boundary. We know from the VMs cosmos and from the Berry Apocalypse that a nebuly line can serve as a cosmic boundary.
The [font=Verdana]Apocalypse of S. Jean, was produced in Liége in 1313. It was later in the library of Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy.[/font]
The critter has been identified with the Golden Fleece. Not my identification, but I agree. A clear connection to P[font=Verdana]hilip the Good, Duke of Burgundy in 1430.[/font]
[font=Verdana]f81v The Nymphs of Abacus (above)[/font]
[font=Verdana]f82v A double rainbow as a celestial throne or a couple bent pipes? How could Burgundy be connected to a representation of a celestial throne???[/font]
[font=Verdana]Hint: La Sainte Hostie de Dijon (1434)[/font]
RE: Quire 13 - Searcher - 25-12-2020
The more I study the Voynich manuscript, the more I am convinced that there are no accidences in it. I think I was very wrong when I thought that the different colors of the pools are due to the lack of one or another paint at the illustrator.
The other day we discussed the colors of rainbows and pipes at f82v, and it dawned on me that green area with blue stains is not a messy use of colors, not something that just happened to be at hand (on a brush), but a completely sensible choice to express the mixing of two liquids or substances. In addition, a group of pages with large pools (f75r-v, f78r-v, f81r-v and f84r-v) also repeats this idea. I made a picture of an expanded sequence of these pages, fortunately, it was not difficult, since this part takes up only two bifolios with a well-defined center.
It can be noted that the pools are divided into 3 types by their content:
1. green liquid;
2. blue liquid;
3. green liquid mixed with blue.
At the same time, a sequence is observed, although not entirely clear. Pools with mixed colors are placed successively (f78v, f81a and f81v). Even though the blue strokes are kind of sloppy, I think these pools also represent a mixture of liquids.
RE: Quire 13 - -JKP- - 26-12-2020
I've always wondered whether the color differences in the water might represent temperature.
RE: Quire 13 - bi3mw - 26-12-2020
I would say that the middle illustration on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. makes it clearest that a process is represented in Quire 13. The red and the dark blue "drain" finally end with the light blue drain which then represents the color of the lower "pool". So a kind of separation could be made here. It just appears as if the blue liquid from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is being recovered.
edit: It's hard to tell if the brown something between the arm and body of the front nymph is also supposed to represent a hidden "drain". But in any case brown also belongs to the sequence. After all, the " splitter " on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has almost the same color.