The Voynich Ninja
Merpersons - Printable Version

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RE: Merpersons - don of tallahassee - 14-02-2016

I have noticed one other comparison between the Hunterian merperson and the one in the VMS.

In the Hunterian image, the merperson is holding the comb with four fingers visible. At the end of the tail of the VMS image, it looks like the same comb (facing the other way), but the four fingers pattern from the first image is repeated here at the very end of the tail.

Another coincidence?

Or the clincher?

Look at all the world's manuscript merpersons. Can you find one anywhere with four finger-like things at the end of the tail or what looks like a comb in the tail?

Look hard. I have.

Oh! And neither merperson is carrying the usual accessory for merpeople - a mirror.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee


RE: Merpersons - -JKP- - 15-02-2016

(14-02-2016, 09:38 PM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have noticed one other comparison between the Hunterian merperson and the one in the VMS.

In the Hunterian image, the merperson is holding the comb with four fingers visible. At the end of the tail of the VMS image, it looks like the same comb (facing the other way), but the four fingers pattern from the first image is repeated here at the very end of the tail.

Another coincidence?

Or the clincher?

Look at all the world's manuscript merpersons. Can you find one anywhere with four finger-like things at the end of the tail or what looks like a comb in the tail?

Look hard. I have.

Oh! And neither merperson is carrying the usual accessory for merpeople - a mirror.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee


Even in the high-resolution scans, I can't tell what's going on in the hand of the VMS figure in the fish. As for the tail, I never thought of those as fingers or as a comb. To me they look like a few extra "ruffles" in the tail. They seem a bit fat and uneven to be fingers or a comb.

When I blogged about melusines, I included a picture of a mermaid at the end. If you click on the pic to enlarge it, you can see four fingers on the hand holding the comb extending beyond the comb (not the usual way of holding a comb), which came to mind when I was reading your post.

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RE: Merpersons - Diane - 15-02-2016

Don,

Nice comment. Thanks.

Provenancing imagery is a little more complicated when you have no idea what the maker was thinking about. 

Was he just adding a little decoration to the page, in fifteenth century Europe?  If so, then why isn't the picture like the pretty mermaids in their nice one-piece costumes who turn up in that time, place and ... yes, tradition?

Was he thinking of Jonah, but for some peculiar reason only wanted to picture females?


If so, then what way did he imagine  Jonah?  That is also part of where and when a person grows up, so if he were in medieval Europe, then in the later centuries he'd probably have a beard, though in the earlier he might be clean-shaven.

If he lived somewhere around the Coptic regions, or had been influenced by them, and seen lots of Coptic-style imagery, but wasn't himself a native (and this is the scenario Baresch supposed, remember) then he might misread the Coptic sort of 'Jonah' as a mermaid.  I'll see if there's one online.
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- ha ha - the one which turned up was one I published myself, but it's a good example and shows how the usual thing there was to show the groin and part of the emerging legs and the beast's eye.

Hang on - you already looked at the same one, didn't you? Sorry. I'll stop.


RE: Merpersons - don of tallahassee - 15-02-2016

Okay, maybe I was reaching a bit farther than I can stretch about the comb and fingers in the VMS image possibly being mirror images of those items as found in the Hunterian Psalter.

It wasn't one of my major arguments, just something I noticed yesterday and thought I'd comment about. I had mentioned the comb in the first entry to this thread, but hadn't noticed the fingers/tail extensions as being possible mirror images also. It may be only a resemblance in my mind.

Thank you Diane and JKP for your comments. You obviously both know lots more than I do about this subject. All I do is look at pictures and try to match them up. And JKP was, I think, the first to show the Hunterian image (unbeknownst to, or unremembered by, me when I started this thread - that's my story, anyway).

I must make a short set of statements here that cover any images I may share. I do not claim to be the first to post any manuscript images. I steal all the images I show off other peoples' and places' sites. I may or may not be the first to have noticed any specific resemblances to any images in the VMS. I am not an image expert nor do I claim to be. I am definitely not an expert on the history of any items I may show or offer for others to use or the VMS. I am taking a year long hiatus from trying to figure out the text and wanted something different to do like trying to figure out where and by whom the VMS was made. Everyone should feel free to use any of the images I offer in any way they desire - I have no claim on them. You don't even have to give me credit for finding them. I have no professional reputation to worry about, no tenure to protect, no position to defend and no irons in the fire as far as the images go. The images are ones that I came across in my searches and decided to share with anyone interested with no strings of my own attached. I hope my claim to fame of any sort will be my work on the text. This image stuff is just relaxation and fun time for me. If I fail to give proper credit to anyone about anything, please feel free to call me a no-good, low-down, dirty, rotten, nasty scoundrel. I've been called worse. And that's exactly the kind of guy I am. 

Worse.   Big Grin  

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee


RE: Merpersons - R. Sale - 20-02-2016

Hi Don,

I've been wracking my last little gray cell with your various  investigations, but it just has not gotten any taller. To be honest, I haven't totally kept up, so I'll just ask.

Do you have the mermaid illustration from Harley 6149 f 30

Did you see the stack of nebuly lines by Konrad Kyeser in the illustration of the Four Winds? I see in his biography that he was court physician in Padua, and died after 1405. They really are nebuly. And I think it is important, in the example of the VMs central rosette that you pointed out, that the VMs author really can do a fairly good replication or a nebuly line. S/He is clearly down with that particular format.

I did look at some examples of heraldic sea-lions (top half lion and nether half fish) and heraldic sea-horses (likewise). About all I can say is that none of them are about to be sneaking out of their fish costumes any time soon, no way.

So is the Hunterian image an accurate reflection of the festivities and the costumes found at one of your Tallahassee pool parties? Or might it reflect a belief in something else, perhaps the existence of a being that is able to move between two forms: mermaid and human?

Good hunting!


RE: Merpersons - Diane - 20-02-2016

Don, I saw a marvellous "mermaid comb" yesterday while looking at ivory work in Ireland and the Hebrides.

No mermaid attached to it, but a phoenix defeating a dragon, and he has a lily-tail. 

Called the Jedburgh comb, made about 1100 AD.

pic.
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PS - notice his long but not pointed ears?  That's like little one on folio 25v.  Lots of other early medieval examples, from as early as the late seventh-early eighth century.  But most of them in ivory first, and in Ireland or the Hebrides.  I suspect the Voynich dragon-baby's "extra foot" on his tail started out as a lily-tail.

Did you know that King Alfred the Great sent someone to India, to the Community of Thomas?  Modern scholars keep trying to minimise or re-interpret the evidence, but I believe it!


RE: Merpersons - david - 20-02-2016

(20-02-2016, 11:30 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Don, I saw a marvellous "mermaid comb" yesterday while looking at ivory work in Ireland and the Hebrides.

That would be scrimshaw, nautical ivory, right?


RE: Merpersons - Sam G - 23-02-2016

Here's a man standing in the mouth of a fish from a medieval Jewish bestiary.  I don't have the exact source since I saw this on a sign in front of a synagogue in Toledo, Spain.  Newbold fans (if there are any) may appreciate the Hebrew micrography.

   

   


RE: Merpersons - MarcoP - 23-02-2016

Thank you, Sam!
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RE: Merpersons - juergenw - 27-02-2016

just to add to the mix...

as this thread is called merperson, I am sure this one fits in:

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found at this page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.