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+--- Thread: Merpersons (/thread-145.html)
RE: Merpersons - don of tallahassee - 21-01-2016
I don't think it is an awkward depiction of the jaw. Not right in the middle between what you think of as eyes. The Voynich artist was better than that. I think you are reaching way out there, now.
That opening is a vee notch of some sort, not a jaw depiction. And the vee notch would fit in much better with a fish tail costume than a fish head.
Do you really not see the similarities I think I see among all four of the images?
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: Merpersons - Anton - 21-01-2016
(21-01-2016, 11:21 PM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think it is an awkward depiction of the jaw. Not right in the middle between what you think of as eyes. The Voynich artist was better than that.
Yes that's true, the perspective is somewhat wrong, either for the eyes or for the jaw
***
There happen strange things with artists sometimes, in one church in Pereslavl-Zalessky (don't remember which one, visited that in my teens) there is a sculpture with his thumbs on the wrong side of the palm.
RE: Merpersons - don of tallahassee - 22-01-2016
That may be true. But I don't think a church in Pereslavl-Zalessky is relevant. Not that I doubt your memory.
The artist of The Voynich Manuscript was good enough not to be that far off.
Also - the eyes are not very pronounced - maybe an illusion, maybe a deliberate ruse of some sort - the vee halts all doubt in my mind. And the four ladies in the images all look to me like they're each going to lift a leg right over the top of the costume.
That, to me, is the much more convincing argument.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: Merpersons - Anton - 22-01-2016
Well, I won't dispute that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is indeed indecisive and it might be a mer-person (which, btw, only simplifies the matter from the European contextual perspective, waiving non-European origins).
As for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - no, much less likely. Note (if you zoom the picture) that there is some content within these objects (from where the ladies are emerging) marked with blue paint (as if to show that they are filled with water). This is similar to other "vessels" such as top left of f83v, in which a lady also resides.
RE: Merpersons - -JKP- - 22-01-2016
(21-01-2016, 09:48 PM)David Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Earlier descriptions (pre 14th century) of mermaids (almost always female) tend to have an exaggerated line around their midriff showing the separation between the human and the animal, usually just above the genitals - the belly-button is always prominent in these images (as it shows the human nature of the beast).
...
Another reason why the belly-button is prominent (sometimes with a large round belly) is because in some depictions this represents the mother goddess, goddess of coitus and procreation. Note that many of these also have the split legs or split fish-body legs (but not all) and emphasis (sometimes a prominent hole) on the birth canal.
One thing that struck me about the VMS fish is that it's more naturalistically drawn than many mermaids and sirens.
RE: Merpersons - don of tallahassee - 22-01-2016
My point with showing these four images of merpersons (or other actors) possibly all in the act of taking off their tail costumes (or whatever) is that they all show a remarkable similarity in their poses, with one leg slightly raised, costume slightly removed. I can find no other images in manuscripts where women (to say nothing of merpersons) are in the act of undressing in this manner or pose. The similarity of even more images (can you find them?) in the VMS to these four leads me to believe that the artist of the VMS must have at some time seen, and used as a model, the Hunterian image. I would be happy to entertain alternate ideas or images as possibilities for the model of the merperson-type images in the VMS. I just haven't found one or them.
If the Hunterian image was the model for the VMS images, it would mean the artist of the VMS was probably in England at some time. The Hunterian manuscript was probably manufactured around York and now resides in Scotland. Many current theories about the VMS are not in accordance with this idea, nor are their propounders very eager to embrace it.
It is easier to reject the image than alter their ideas and pet theories. I can understand that.
If anyone knows of any alternate possibilities, I would really like to see them/it or receive a link to them/it.
I try to make my ideas and theories fit the evidence, not the evidence fit my theories. And I do try to rely on evidence, not IFidence.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: Merpersons - -JKP- - 23-01-2016
(22-01-2016, 09:05 PM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the Hunterian image was the model for the VMS images, it would mean the artist of the VMS was probably in England at some time. The Hunterian manuscript was probably manufactured around York and now resides in Scotland. Many current theories about the VMS are not in accordance with this idea, nor are their propounders very eager to embrace it.
There was definitely some "cross-pollination" between monasteries in England and those in central Europe in the 14th and 15th centuries. I've been tracing handwriting traditions (which were mainly developed for and spread through ecclesiastical writings) and there is a handwriting connection that is probably attributable to monks traveling between these locations (with further study, I might even be able to narrow down which one(s), but it's a time-consuming trail to follow and I can't pinpoint a specific person or date yet).
RE: Merpersons - Diane - 23-01-2016
JKP
You are right about the movement of scribes and members of religious orders. This is so much the case, that even if the hand which wrote the quire numbers is one taught in schools or scriptoria around Lake Constance, it would still tell us almost nothing about where our manuscript was made. People just didn't think in terms of the modern definitions of nationality and national borders and didn't need to while Latin was the language everyone knew who knew how to read and write.
You only need read a few biographies to see that: someone is born in Poland, studies in Italy, works in France, and dies in northern Spain.
Someone is born in Dalmatia, travels to study in Greece and in Egypt, then settles in Mallorca before going to North Africa.
Look at Nicholas of Cusa's life, for example. He actively argued in favour of all Christendom's remaining united and retaining Latin as the 'lingua franca'.
Like the assumption of authorship, the theory of a "nationality" for the manuscript is mostly a reflection of modern assumptions being applied without actually seeing if they're appropriate. A monk born in Prague might have served in the Holy Land, or anywhere else his order had a monastery. That's why it's routine to find a German hand in an English-made manuscript, or a Saxon hand in one which was made in Fleury... same through the centuries.
But for me, it doesn't matter where we find the manuscript was made, if we ever do. What bothers me is that a near-obsession with establishing a fairly dubious argument for 'nationality' threatens to distort a balanced study of the manuscript's content, and especially its imagery. IMO
Don,
With regard to 'mer-' figures generally. There are various lines of descent for these images.
One is the "triton" type, which occurs in the Mediterranean from before the rise of Rome and has a notable Irish variety. It also occurs along the major routes to the east, and westwards. It usually has two fish-legs, which the central figure grips. One which is remarkably true to the older figure is in Crowcombe in England
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Another was made for the Colonna family in renaissance italy,
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Then there's the mirror-and-comb holding sort, which properly has only one tail and commonly turns a little to the side.
Then there's the 'Jonah' type. Very popular in early Coptic Christian works, especially textiles and stone. He is always emerging from a fish that is a huge, hostile monster-thingy.
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And then there's Matsya whose fish-part always looks as if it's pretty friendly and whose eyes are normally seen. I'm linking to a modern image, but the historical ones look much the same. It's the one Kircher knew and tried to draw, though he thought the figure a female.
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The interesting thing about Matsya is that he was only worshipped by one or two cult-sites, and both were important centres for foreign traders and trader-settlements.
Don't know if this helps.
RE: Merpersons - don of tallahassee - 23-01-2016
Dear Diane,
As always, I bow to your superior knowledge.
I was aware of the several different types of mermaids/mermen only in hindsight. Looking back, I had loosely grouped them approximately as you have shown (but I didn't have any idea of where they were occurring - didn't think to check each one). I was mainly looking at mermaid/merman images for ones similar to the one in the VMS. It was pretty much only a minor search topic among the nebuly line images and Scorpio images and a few others I was mainly focusing on.
Re: "Then there's the mirror-and-comb holding sort, which properly has only one tail and commonly turns a little to the side."
Are there any that are stepping out of their costumes in a manner similar to the four images I show? Do you know of any images anywhere with a lady stepping out of any clothing/costume in a manner similar to these four? Of course I am asking for additional images that may have been used as a model for the VMS ladies. The pose in the VMS for the three images shown is with the costume portion partially off and the lady seeming to be stepping out of the costume or getting ready to perform that action.
I saw many mermaids of this sort with mirrors, few (if any) also with combs or only with combs.
I looked at two or three million images searching for any others and came up with zilch. I've asked you before and will ask again - do you know of any others? Did the artist in York that painted the Hunterian example make any other copies that are in other libraries? Did anyone else use the pose for merpersons? Is there anything similar elsewhere?
Does anyone else know of any such images (and could you point me to them, please)?
You know that I believe the artist of the Voynich Manuscript must have gotten some of his/her models, some of his/her motifs and some of his/her ideas from existing art somewhere or some wheres. The Hunterian example is so strikingly similar to the ones in the VMS that I can hardly believe in so much coincidence, especially given the paucity of equally convincing alternate examples. And the dates fit.
But you know me - I can add two and two together and get seven much more often than other people do.
Thank you for the background information.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: Merpersons - david - 23-01-2016
The settings for these 'mermaids' is not very orthodox.
By their very nature, mermaids were used to illustrated far away places in the deep sea.
I would suggest that identifying these objects as mermaids would set the location as somewhere far away and nautical. And in anycase, the setting seems far too ripine for a mermaid.
So what are they? I have some thoughts but nothing ready for publishing at the moment. But I am concentrating on something continental, not nautical, in keeping with the general feel of the pages.
The Hunterian image, by the way, is not a very prominent image. It extends out of a initial on a page, and isn't very large at all. I suggest the only reason the modern curators fixated on it was because it is a rare example of an extension to a decorated initial, usually such decorations are confined to the inside of the letter.
Notwithstanding that, I admit there is a comparison to be made, and well done for spotting it.