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RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Anton - 12-01-2017
Quote:The cold war.
The fact that it could happen that a nuke war, would destroy the earth is so strong, that this ended the cold war.
There was no nuclear war, but the fact that the threat is real made us realize that some day it easily could go wrong.
The cold war ended not because of anyone's concerns about the destruction of the earth, but due to the collapse of the USSR. When one of the counterparties collapses, there's no need for war anymore. And as contradictions between states become more tense in these days, we are sadly closer to nuclear war now than we were 30 years ago.
In fact, there was a nuclear war in 1945, when the US dropped nukes on Japanese.
But that's all offtopic.
No success in identification of plants may indeed be explained by that they are not meant to represent real plants. But it as well may be explained by that they do represent real plants, but in an uncommon way. So the problem has been with the methodology, with approach, rather than with the plants themselves. Why do you consider the former explanation, but do not consider the latter?
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - -JKP- - 12-01-2017
(12-01-2017, 12:00 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my opinion so much time & energy is wasted on the 129 pages of herbals and the 20 pages with roots that someone has to try to stop the waste of human energy resources.
I happen to be interested in plants. For me it's not a waste of time or energy.
Also, it's not up to us to tell others how they should spend their time. Sometimes they see something (that they aren't telling) that others have missed, and even if they don't, it's really none of our business. Peace.
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Davidsch - 19-02-2017
It was an attempt to make a point, but obviously this type of posting does not work either here. I was trying to start a constructive discussion, but every angle and almost every attempt ends in utter disappointment on my end.
Still it remains unacceptable that the plants are a presentation of a real plant.
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RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Koen G - 19-02-2017
Davidsch, if you want to start a discussion you need to provide a more solid base for people to start from.
Yes, you are completely right that the plants are not exact "portraits". This is important to know, and important to keep pointing out. So to that extent I can only agree.
But there are several options to explain this. One which has gained some momentum lately is that the shape of the leaves and some other aspects are deemed sufficient to identify the plant, and some other parts like fruits and roots are more symbolic or abstract because they tell something about the plant.
You say that studying the plants is useless because they are not real, they just mean to evoke a setting to talk about other things. But people don't understand why you believe this is the case.
Also, we're getting some mixed signals, because after this thread you made one where you ask us to stop doing herbal research, you asked for identifications of the small plants and tentatively identified one as ginger.
Quote:In my opinion so much time & energy is wasted on the 129 pages of herbals and the 20 pages with roots that someone has to try to stop the waste of human energy resources.
Quote:c) identification:
Are there roots that can be identified without doubt? for example ginger, onion, carrot
I see a possible ginger.
So you're disappointed because we're not discussing a proposal you apparently don't fully believe in yourself? First you say that researching the root pages is a waste of human resources and in a later thread you ask us to research the root pages?
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Linda - 19-02-2017
I like to spend time on the plants, a) because most of the manuscript is involved with them b) because plants in general are interesting c) trying to reconcile the items that are not drawn in a realistic way may help one to understand other abstractions in the manuscript
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Searcher - 19-02-2017
While I'm still not sure that the section with images of plants is a real herbal section, in the same time, I think that those facts that, probably, some exotic plants are depicted here can't be ignored. At least, there some reason must be to depict a pangolin (or armadillo) in the manuscript, a quite not usual animal for European herbal manuscripts.
The following assumption is speculative, without doubt, but pretty attractive, as for me. I think that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents the plant Drosera (known in Europe) and some people agree with this. I know that Dioanea muscipula once was suggested as an identification of the plant on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Of course, it doesn't fit, as a post-Columbian American plant, it is an artifact (along with Sunflower), as it is accepted in relates to the VMs parchment dating. But I don't understand not this. Why the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the best candidate for Dionaea muscipula. Moreover, it could be logical to put the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (insectivorous) on the same folio.
![[Image: ca958310df6b5b4afc4ac45276273863.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/95/83/ca958310df6b5b4afc4ac45276273863.jpg)
My main point here is not an identification of particular images, my point is that it is rather important to study the plants in the herbal section, than the waste of time, even if the text is not about herbs. There must be strong reasons for those depictions.
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - -JKP- - 20-02-2017
(19-02-2017, 11:43 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While I'm still not sure that the section with images of plants is a real herbal section, in the same time, I think that those facts that, probably, some exotic plants are depicted here can't be ignored. At least, there some reason must be to depict a pangolin (or armadillo) in the manuscript, a quite not usual animal for European herbal manuscripts.
The following assumption is speculative, without doubt, but pretty attractive, as for me. I think that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents the plant Drosera (known in Europe) and some people agree with this. I know that Dioanea muscipula once was suggested as an identification of the plant on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Of course, it doesn't fit, as a post-Columbian American plant, it is an artifact (along with Sunflower), as it is accepted in relates to the VMs parchment dating. But I don't understand not this. Why the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ? The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the best candidate for Dionaea muscipula. Moreover, it could be logical to put the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (insectivorous) on the same folio.
My main point here is not an identification of particular images, my point is that it is rather important to study the plants in the herbal section, than the waste of time, even if the text is not about herbs. There must be strong reasons for those depictions.
Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. doesn't look like Drosera. Drosera tends to have delicate, somewhat small flowers, not at all like the VMS plant. And... there are other plants that have rounded bumps on the leaf margins that resemble You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. much more closely than Drosera (e.g., some of the Kalanchoe and Grindelia plants). In fact, Grindelia, has hooks on the flower-head when it starts going to seed, similar to the VMS plant.
The Kalanchoes (originally from Asia and Africa) are particularly known for their scalloped leaves and some of them even have tiny round "baby" leaves all along the edges of the leaf margins.
So I don't think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a good candidate for Drosera, but I agree that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like Drosera. Drosera has been on the top of my list of possible IDs for 56r since the first time I saw it but I think there is one additional possibility for 56r...
Many of the old herbal manuscripts have a drawing of a mountain, sometimes with a miner prospecting for minerals, and on that mountain is frequently shown a plant with a curled head similar to 56r. Unfortunately, the plant is always drawn very small and is never labeled, so I haven't been able to figure out what species it represents. It's not drawn like heliotrope or one of the Boraginaea, or other plants with curled flower stems, it looks like Drosera, but I can't figure out why it would always be associated with the mountain and minerals. Drosera tends to like boggy places, not cliffy ones.
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Davidsch - 20-02-2017
Quote:JKP:... you asked for identifications of the small plants and tentatively identified one as ginger.
Yes, I see you are the one reader of the numerous threads I created in an attempt to retrieve more information on different subjects. I thank you for that.
You are right about the mixed signal on the roots. When I wrote this thread I did not realize that the roots and the labels could provide a match, but also I am seeking for a possible alternative explanation of the text surrounded by herbals.
I make a distinct difference between roots and plants. The roots contain labeling, but the plants (with one exception) do not have labels.
The labels show that the roots are ready for identification.
I see many global and conceptual discussions and a lot of time is spent on entering postings with very very very few new information or research.
And on the other hand when there is an exact question, an invitation or a challenge, there is only critique on me as a person or on the way I formulated the posting.
In that I am disappointed but I guess that is equivalent to the way Internet works these days.
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Searcher - 20-02-2017
JKP:
Quote:Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. doesn't look like Drosera. Drosera tends to have delicate, somewhat small flowers, not at all like the VMS plant. And... there are other plants that have rounded bumps on the leaf margins that resemble You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. much more closely than Drosera (e.g., some of the Kalanchoe and Grindelia plants). In fact, Grindelia, has hooks on the flower-head when it starts going to seed, similar to the VMS plant.JKP, as I understand, you say about f50r, not about f50v, don't you?
The Kalanchoes (originally from Asia and Africa) are particularly known for their scalloped leaves and some of them even have tiny round "baby" leaves all along the edges of the leaf margins.
So I don't think You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a good candidate for Drosera, but I agree that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks like Drosera. Drosera has been on the top of my list of possible IDs for 56r since the first time I saw it but I think there is one additional possibility for 56r...
I absolutely agree that the flower of the plant on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. doesn't look as a flower of Drosera rotundifolia, if it is a flower, indeed.
Drosera burmannii
![[Image: sundew8-kch04032013.jpg]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HV8TGRvtKO0/UTQ6lSa_P3I/AAAAAAAANbI/rDlaeKFsxAw/s1600/sundew8-kch04032013.jpg)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Drosera trinervia
![[Image: Drosera_trinervia1.jpg]](http://www.exotic-plants.de/auktionsbilder/Drosera_trinervia1.jpg)
I agree that the flower of the plant on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is much closer to a flower of Drosera rotundifolia, but its foot of the stem really confuses me, it looks like a palm one.
As for Kalanchoe, I agree - it could be a possible candidate for f50r, but I prefer f (will write later), although I don't exclude two different species of them.
Anyway, for me personally, no matter, how much it contradicts to the date, I think that Dioanea muscipula is the best candidate for f50v, but I will consider any better variants with pleasure.
I'm sorry for off-top.
RE: stop energy waste on herbal research - Davidsch - 20-02-2017
Whoeha!
I try to make a point that posting herbal pictures and naming them is a waste of energy and what do you people do ?
Post even more (vague) herbal pictures.
Where is Donald Trump if one needs him ?