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+--- Thread: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters (/thread-141.html)
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 16-03-2016
(16-03-2016, 04:05 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-03-2016, 03:11 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then it turns out that the gallows written last on the page, since the bad pen affects only the gallows.
Good observation! Althouth another possible explanation is that the specific movement of the bad quill which produced this defect is utilized only when inscribing the gallows. Also, I think that vord 4 in the second line (qockchar) has its r defective in the same way.
There's something going on with those gallows in the first and second row (f6v). If the quill were defective, the first stem and the "o" would also be thicker or filled more significantly. The "quill defect" is only affecting one letter.
It looks like an attempt to draw it differently, perhaps to add in emphasis (which, by the way is a characteristic of pilcrows, to make one stem a little thicker than others but I'm not suggesting that's the reason for it in this case, only noting the fact for information purposes).
The gallows look like they were drawn with the right-hand stem first (after the left-hand stem is in place) and then the extra loop and thicker stem to the left of the right-hand stem (the one touching it) added as a second stroke slightly to the left to thicken it. It's very unlikely the second stroke is to correct a defect, since other letters would have defects from a bad quill and you can see the same process, unfinished, on the gallows in the middle of the third line—the scribe started to add a second stroke and stopped partway down and the subsequent gallows does not have the second stroke, as though he maybe decided it wasn't such a good idea to keep doing it.
Also, for interest's sake...
Look at the EVA-r glyphs at the bottom of the same page (6v) and the "or" on the last line...
Not only are some of them darker, as though they may all have been added at the same time after the main text, but look at the weird spacing. They do not follow "comfortably" from the previous characters in terms of word-letter spacing as if they were written in sequence and they are clearly not re-inked. The darker ink by itself might mean redipping the quill (although it doesn't explain why the subsequent letter isn't also darker) but combined with the odd spacing, it is worth noting.
There are many sections of the VMS that look like they might have been constructed in two passes.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Anton - 16-03-2016
Quote:you can see the same process, unfinished, on the gallows in the middle of the third line—the scribe started to add a second stroke and stopped partway down and the subsequent gallows does not have the second stroke, as though he maybe decided it wasn't such a good idea to keep doing it.
Do you mean oochoikhy? The "process" is actually "finished", just the ink mostly ran out.
Quote:Look at the EVA-r glyphs at the bottom of the same page (6v) and the "or" on the last line...
Not only are they darker, as though they may all have been added at the same time after the main text, but look at the weird spacing. They do not follow "comfortably" from the previous characters in terms of word-letter spacing as if they were written in sequence and they are clearly not re-inked.
Besides spacing, there are (here and in consistently through the VMS in general) interesting things happening with the baseline. E.g. f6v, second line from the end, choldar. The r is darker, but the spacing is OK. But r is lower than the baseline of cholda. Or, in the last line, ychcor. Looks like chco were written in a different pass than y and r.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 16-03-2016
(16-03-2016, 08:37 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:you can see the same process, unfinished, on the gallows in the middle of the third line—the scribe started to add a second stroke and stopped partway down and the subsequent gallows does not have the second stroke, as though he maybe decided it wasn't such a good idea to keep doing it.
Do you mean oochoikhy? The "process" is actually "finished", just the ink mostly ran out.
That's a possible interpretation as a tiny bit of the pressure mark is visible all the way to the bottom, but if the intention was to make it like the others, all he had to do was add ink and fix/finish it. But the process stops on that character. He doesn't correct it or do any more that way. It looks like he might have had second thoughts about the idea. The ones previous to that look deliberate, not accidental. There's no quill problem with the preceding or succeeding letters. some are a little darker (from re-dipping the quill) but they are not double-line thick and the first stem on the gallows isn't thick either.
I suspect it was a deliberate (and abandoned) experiment rather than a quill problem.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Anton - 16-03-2016
Quote:There's no quill problem with the preceding or succeeding letters
As Wladimir suggests, this may be due to gallows being inserted in another pass.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - -JKP- - 16-03-2016
(16-03-2016, 09:04 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:There's no quill problem with the preceding or succeeding letters
As Wladimir suggests, this may be due to gallows being inserted in another pass.
Yes, possibly.
If this document is created in more than one pass, sometimes the ink will match and sometimes it won't, so it wouldn't necessarily be easy to detect it all the time.
Darker ink sometimes means a different pot of ink or that the scribe is getting close to the bottom of the original pot of ink (the heavier particles tend to settle and often create a darker ink) but if the line were written as one line (and then a second pass on the same line) or as one paragraph (and then a second pass through the second paragraph), the ink color and density might be more consistent.
Most of the instances of text that hint at characters having been added that I've seen so far have characters added between word-tokens or at the end of word-tokens but who knows, perhaps the process happens with gallows, as well. The entire VMS document has odd spacing between words (and sometimes between characters) compared to every other manuscript I've ever seen (which is hundreds of them).
Almost from the beginning I've wondered why the spacing is strange. I thought at first it might be because the scribe was looking away at another copy (a wax tablet, for example) and back, away and back, which would interrupt the natural flow of writing, or that the unfamiliarity of writing code letters (compared to natural language) might be diverting some of the scribe's attention away from the natural flow of text, but perhaps there are other explanations—maybe if it's done in more than one pass it would explain the odd spacing.
If this were a fraud document, it would probably be more rather than less consistent, since fake text doesn't have to mean anything and the person could write it more comfortably. I'm still not 100% certain there is meaning behind the text, but the odd spacing is one small detail, along with many other small details, that gives me hope that the text says something.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Koen G - 17-03-2016
The discussion about gallows being added afterwards reminds me of rubrication, where the scribe would sometimes leave a mark where the rubricator had to add in the letter. It may be far fetched, but I'll mention it anyways.
I've lately been looking at Pseudo-Apuleius, because his glossaries are basically what I think the root-and-leaf section is as well (it would explain some things about returning words and near-synonyms in the paragraphs: they may just be similar names for the plant).
Now to get to the point, take a look at this page, for example.
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Note how marks, in this case the letters, have been made in the leftmost column for the rubricator. Now let's put them in a paragraph, like Voynich paragraphs. I'll leave the red letters red, think of those as gallows:
Quote:aAlii augion aAlii lycion aAlii lycoscon aAlii lycopsolon aAlii torcavion oOftanes dicit ypnoticon
In the Voynich we have a limited number of gallows, with a limited number of "prefixes", like the "o-" or "4o". The gallows don't have a one-to one relationship to the prefixes, so we can eliminate the above scenario. Maybe at one stage, the "prefixes" were meant to be marks for a colleague, for example colour markers? The gallows are not colored, but we might assume that this was a later task that didn't get finished.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Wladimir D - 20-03-2016
On You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. page it seems there is the same with of the right leg and with the loop, as in f6v.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Anton - 20-03-2016
Most interesting is the t in the first line of the tenth word of f17v.
Its right portion contains two loops, one of which has the shape of an ascender characteristic for Latin "l" or "b", as observed e.g. in f116v.
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Wladimir D - 22-03-2016
I think that there is no such characters as "capital of the gallows." Analyze the drawings 1- 7. Why on the gallows, no line on the waist, while gallows on the second floor? The effect of "capital gallows" ensured by due to of existence a character horizontal line.
Exist code 158. See earlier examples You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 14.12.15 (FILIP). In the new examples of Figure 13, 15, 17.
Code 149 = code 158 + apostrophe. Figure 15. The fifth case spelling an apostrophe in the string. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 17.03.16 . Same place point examples.
On a high-definition scans can be seen that Code 150 = "c" + code 158 (Figure 17).
In Figure 16, the mirror character of code 158. This horizontal line + dot. Here the right horizontal line is written a little higher than the shelf of "c" symbol. In Figure 21, the horizontal line is written also a little higher than the shelf of "q" symbol.
What can explain of the difference in the writing of the benches ( Figure 8) . Four are written neatly, and two with blots? Again bad pen? No! This author draws a point.
I think, as in Figure 10 does not blot, and a big point. Anton and JKP look at the tone of ink of point and of loop of gallows ( Figure 9). It looks like that they are tinted of the resistant ink, in the process of checking text (inks does not crumble Figure 11).
Figure 6. Here, the left symbol "y" is added later, as he written on the shelf of "h"- symbol. Why is its was impossible to sign it yet more to the left, so as not to spoil the shelf? Maybe it's not to have an additional symbol "horizontal line"?
RE: Decomposition of the "gallows" characters - Davidsch - 14-06-2016
Question:i know I saw a frequency table with all the starting vords compared with the gallow characters and the prefix / suffix on them,
but after a search of 45 minutes i give up. Does anybody have the link to that research that would make me very happy.