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The Impossibility of Double Gallows - Printable Version

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RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - Emma May Smith - 01-11-2018

(01-11-2018, 11:06 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How big the distance ( chars ) between any two gallows is can be graphically represented. Overall, the curve drops evenly. For the entire VMS it looks like this:
[Image: gallows1.png]

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Does this count spaces? And if so is there some way of representing spaces on the graph? Such as colour coding?

The thing is, not only do gallows almost never occur next to one another, relatively few words have two gallows. Thus the space between two gallows is based on the space between their occurrences in adjacent words. Given that gallows also uncommonly occur at the end of words, the common minimum would be something like: [Gy.G].

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - bi3mw - 02-11-2018

(01-11-2018, 10:37 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Does this count spaces? And if so is there some way of representing spaces on the graph? Such as colour coding?

The thing is, not only do gallows almost never occur next to one another, relatively few words have two gallows. Thus the space between two gallows is based on the space between their occurrences in adjacent words. Given that gallows also uncommonly occur at the end of words, the common minimum would be something like: [Gy.G].
...

Yes, it counts spaces. Filtering the spaces separately is difficult with bash - scripts Wink Otherwise you could possibly put them as layers over the diagram.

@Davidsch mentioned his earlier investigations. Maybe he has something to offer?

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - Diane - 04-11-2018

Emma, I'm sure someone must have asked you this before but if so I missed seeing your opinion .

Could the gallows not serve as a separate class of figure altogether? A logogram like Chinese characters or like the 'monogram' idea which JKP raised again earlier in this thread.

I know that the usual forms for Latin abbreviations has been turned over in detail in earlier years, and the Greek forms were also considered - though I can only date my own survey which is late:  2010. I found closest similarities to Carian fragments rather than standard medieval Greek notae - but that's another story.

Do you think the gallows could be a small set of logograms or of 'monograms'?  The question is a open one, not an argument in disguise.    Wink

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - ChenZheChina - 05-11-2018

(01-11-2018, 11:06 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How big the distance ( chars ) between any two gallows is can be graphically represented. Overall, the curve drops evenly. For the entire VMS it looks like this:
[Image: gallows1.png]

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Hi bi3mw,

Thank you for the amazing chart!

May I ask you what do you mean by “between any two gallows”?

For example, we have “choky.chol.cTholShol.okal” on f1v.

Question 1, do you count three pairs (k-T, T-k and k-k), or two pairs (k-T and T-k)?

Question 2, when counting distance, do you consider cTh as one gallow, or T as one gallow (distance +1 because of c and h)?

Question 3, in the downloadable sheet file, I saw the maximum distance is 91. How do you get this?

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - nablator - 05-11-2018

This may be the longest string without gallows (f89v2.3-4):

ychey okeey qoeol daiin chor chor cheos qoleeeey dal chody cheor chey qoaiin chody
dair or cheol chom qol cheo lcho l or cheo daiin chkam

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - ChenZheChina - 05-11-2018

(05-11-2018, 10:24 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This may be the longest string without gallows (f89v2.2-3):

ychey okeey qoeol daiin chor chor cheos qoleeeey dal chody cheor chey qoaiin chody
dair or cheol chom qol cheo lcho l or cheo daiin chkam

Thanks, nablator. This example is very enlightening. In this case, I found 91 characters between the first and the last k, if I:

1) Remove all spaces,
2) Count ch as one character, and
3) Count the newline as one character, too.

I wonder if this is how bi3mw got one case of distance 91 in their spreadsheet.

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - bi3mw - 05-11-2018

Hi ChenZheChina,

Question 1: Counting until the occurrence of any new gallows.
Question 2: No, cTh are two chars and one gallow ( counted one ).
Question 3: 91 is what comes out as result, every char and LF was counted. It is just what the script returns.

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - ChenZheChina - 06-11-2018

(05-11-2018, 02:29 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi ChenZheChina,

Question 1: Counting until the occurrence of any new gallows.
Question 2: No, cTh are two chars and one gallow ( counted one ).
Question 3: 91 is what comes out as result, every char and LF was counted. It is just what the script returns.

Thank you for the explanation.

I checked what nablator found in f89v2 , and it seems that the transcription is well done with no obviously ambiguous characters.

ychey okeey qoeol daiin chor chor cheos qoleeeey dal chody cheor chey qoaiin chody
dair or cheol chom qol cheo lcho l or cheo daiin chkam

In this case, the distance between the first and the last k would be 127, if all spaces and newlines (LF) are counted. Even if we remove all suspicious spaces in the second line (cheo lcho l or cheo daiin -> cheolcholorcheodaiin), the distance would still be 122, which is much larger than 91.

Is it possible that the transcription you used is incomplete, or the bash script is accidentally missing some lines?

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - bi3mw - 06-11-2018

(06-11-2018, 03:18 AM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

Is it possible that the transcription you used is incomplete, or the bash script is accidentally missing some lines?
...

The transcription is complete. It's probably a problem with the script ("let" - calculation).

RE: The Impossibility of Double Gallows - nablator - 06-02-2019

(30-10-2018, 12:29 PM)ChenZheChina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I saw these combinations in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but am not sure whether they should be viewed as “double gallow” or not:

Possible tk in Line 7, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Takahashi Takeshi: “qekar”
René Zandbergen: “q@145;kar”

[...]


Takahashi Takeshi: “q?or”
René Zandbergen: “q[?:e]or”

In this case, the rare character that look similar to characters above, is not before another gallow character.

Maybe relevant, here is one q‘ in a Xth century manuscript (Agobard - De grandine et tonitruis)

   

BNF Latin 2853 f. 95r, line 13: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

 It is transcribed as quia although it is slightly different from the other quia:

   

which are found in Cappelli: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.