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+--- Thread: Currier A and B (/thread-120.html)
RE: Currier A and B - nablator - 29-11-2019
(16-01-2016, 06:53 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think one problem with saying whether a label or a word occurs only in Currier A or B, is that you may not be capturing the real difference.
For example, [okedy] occurs 113 or so times, but only in B. And [otedy] occurs about 150 times, again only in B. Yet the Currier B "feature" is not either of those words but rather the bigram [ed], which is over 125 times more common in B than A.
It is better to start with these two character combinations as they are more fundamental to whether a word appears in one language or another. They are also, hopefully, more diagnostic of what the difference between A and B will turn out to be.
To discriminate between Currier A and B with EVA bigrams statistics only, the following are probably the best: "ed", "hd", "lG" where G is a gallows glyph, especially "k". They are common in B, almost absent in A. Apparently there is no bigram that is common in A and almost absent in B.
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From these visual statistics there are few intermediate pages between A and B:
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : 4 "hd", 2 "ed"
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : first paragraph A, second paragraph B?
- f58 is special: it's both intermediate between A and B and a move sideways: the frequency of "al" and "ly" is higher than on any other folio.
- f88v: 3 "ed", f89r1: 3 "ed", f89r2: first paragraph has 4 "ed", last paragraph looks like "pure" A.
RE: Currier A and B - Koen G - 29-11-2019
(29-11-2019, 04:02 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
From these visual statistics there are few intermediate pages between A and B:
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : 4 "hd", 2 "ed"
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. : first paragraph A, second paragraph B?
- f58 is special: it's both intermediate between A and B and a move sideways: the density of "al" and "ly" is higher than on any other folio.
- f88v: 3 "ed", f89r1: 3 "ed", f89r2: first paragraph has 4 "ed", last paragraph looks like "pure" A.
This is the visually most appealing A vs B division I've ever seen, very nice.
The fact that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is among the "half/half" pages cannot be a coincidence: it it the plant folio with the "wheel of fortune" on the verso side. It seems likely that in the original order, one plant section ended there. The "wheel of fortune" also doesn't have its own paragraph, so maybe...
Something similar happens in f65v, where the recto side is this one plant with only two or three words of text. But if one plant is a B-text plant and the other an A-text plant, then why put both paragraphs together with one plant. Probably the two words on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mean "see reverse"
Also, on the small-plant pages, it looks like a disproportionate amount of labels show the features you marked.
RE: Currier A and B - ReneZ - 30-11-2019
This particular feature of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was already discussed here before. I don't know if I showed my colour coded version of this page:
Green has occurrences of 'eod' and light blue of 'ed'. These are two of the four stages in the transition from Currier A to Currier B. I used:
Red for 'hol' (part of e.g. chol)
yellow for 'eol'
green for 'eod'
light blue for 'ed'.
Red and yellow are like A language. Yellow is more typical for the pharma pages.
green is more seen in the astro / cosmo area
light blue is restricted to B language.
Another interesting page is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which has only yellow and green.
The quoted pages You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have all four colours, just like the stars / recipes section.
RE: Currier A and B - DONJCH - 30-11-2019
So, forgive me, it has been a few months but - what about Quires 9 and 10, traditionally unclassified?
To me it seems that the paragraphs are A - like but the circular text is B - like?
This relates to the proposal originally put forward by VViews.
RE: Currier A and B - nablator - 11-12-2019
I forgot to post the list of EVA bigrams ordered by decreasing B/A occurrence ratio:
ed 134.6
lk 28.6
_l 21.3
hd 18.5
ec 8.3
dy 7.1
lc 6.4
ka 6.3
te 5.9
_a 5.7
...
(_ = space or start of line)
(done with the TT transliteration)
RE: Currier A and B - nickpelling - 12-12-2019
Here's a minor variation of Rene's A/B comparison, but colour-coded using voynichese.com's tools:
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- hol = red
- hor = purple
- eol = yellow
- eod = green
- ed = cyan
- hd = dark blue
1) The astronomy and zodiac quires are a random mess, and probably shouldn't be used by anyone trying to systematically understand A or B
2) f38 seems to have A on the recto and B on the verso (f35, the other half of the bifolio, is all A). So You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might well be the last page of Herbal A, and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be the first page of Herbal B. (f38v was marked as "A (Currier)" in the interlinear, which I think is incorrect.)
3) The bottom paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has only a few hd instances
4) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. indeed has the green para then cyan para that Rene mentioned.
5) f85r1 has an oddly strong concentration of hd instances
RE: Currier A and B - ReneZ - 12-12-2019
Interesting!
Just having taken a quick look at f38 r and v, I am not seeing much pointing to Currier B language.
Note that the indications in the interlinear file were probably taken from a file I sent to Stolfi. Apart from the possibility that there could have been mistakes, the A/B labels indicate "what Currier decided".
He could be wrong of course, but it should be from his paper.
There is more data here than can be analysed in a short period of time. There are a couple of things in the zodiac area that, even while they seem messy indeed, appear very interesting.
More about that later.
RE: Currier A and B - nickpelling - 12-12-2019
(12-12-2019, 09:35 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just having taken a quick look at f38 r and v, I am not seeing much pointing to Currier B language.
Looking again at it this evening, I'm not seeing the issue with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I saw last night at all, apologies for having got a bit excited. I know what I saw last night, but it's not there now, so perhaps it was some kind of transient display bug on voynichese.com. *sigh* Never mind!
Hopefully the image was useful nonetheless.
Cheers, Nick
RE: Currier A and B - nickpelling - 13-12-2019
There was also a typo in my previous link, in that the final hd should have been coloured dark blue:
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Looking at the eod (green) pages this query foregrounds: the two Pharma sections seem strongly similar (which would make sense), while there is most of a quire's worth of Herbal eod bifolios - f51-54, f87-90 (wide), f93-f96. I think it would have been logical if these bifolios had all originally been grouped in a single gathering/quire.