+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: Currier A and B (/thread-120.html)
RE: Currier A and B - julian - 16-09-2016
(15-09-2016, 08:49 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-09-2016, 08:43 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Or, the cipher relies on some mechanism (e.g. a cipher disk) that was reset between the writing of A folios and B folios.
That's, in particular, what I mean when I speak of the different initial conditions.
I'm not saying this isn't possible, but usually when cipher disks are reset, the result is significantly different rather than different in a few small details.
I'm also influenced by Strong's idea of multiple alphabets being used in some defined progression: if the scribe accidentally misses one alphabet out of the sequence then the result might be similar to what we see.
Is there a thread about Strong's proposal? (I know you have written about it in your blog, JKP.)
RE: Currier A and B - -JKP- - 16-09-2016
(16-09-2016, 04:48 AM)julian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-09-2016, 08:49 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(15-09-2016, 08:43 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Or, the cipher relies on some mechanism (e.g. a cipher disk) that was reset between the writing of A folios and B folios.
That's, in particular, what I mean when I speak of the different initial conditions.
I'm not saying this isn't possible, but usually when cipher disks are reset, the result is significantly different rather than different in a few small details.
I'm also influenced by Strong's idea of multiple alphabets being used in some defined progression: if the scribe accidentally misses one alphabet out of the sequence then the result might be similar to what we see.
Is there a thread about Strong's proposal? (I know you have written about it in your blog, JKP.)
My problem with Strong's "solution" is that he said multiple times that it was Trithemius but abandoned Trithemian analysis (after creating the frequency tables to determine likely languages) and used a "go with the gut" system instead, cherry-picking anything that looked like it might have meaning when combined with other words in that section.
So, he didn't actually follow through with his Trithemius assertions and didn't even analyze enough languages to go to the next step as he did.
Sloppy work. Too eager to find a solution. Lazy scholarship.
I haven't read Friedman's opinions on the VMS, or seen any of the task group's results, but I have no doubt they explored Trithemius pretty thoroughly—WWII code breakers were familiar with how Trithemian systems work.
I don't know if you can read German or Latin, but there are quite a few books on Trithemius (and other cipher-related topics) from earlier centuries on Google books. If not, there are some English translations, as well.
RE: Currier A and B - Anton - 16-09-2016
Quote:I don't know why the orthography would evolve. I'm seeking a model/process that fits the observation that the text changes over the course of the manuscript. Though the simplest reason for it would be that the script or language are new to being written, and the writer address problems as he finds them.
As to the nature of the changes, I'm not sure what the difference between evolution and stepwise would be here. Any orthography would be a set of discrete rules within the writer's head. Each one is either true or false at any given point in the manuscript. Multiple rules may have been changed at once, and some rules may have had a bigger effect than others.
I mean that if one reads a document in some language, then one naturally expects its orthography to be stable within this document. Are there are any real-life examples of books in a single language having their orthography evolving?
RE: Currier A and B - Koen G - 16-09-2016
Anton: spelling was far from stable before the Renaissance period, even within the same manuscript. For example, an editor's note on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says that he normalized the use of spaces to modern conventions because there was no internal consistency. This was the case in various types of compound words, like compound nouns, verbs or clitics (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
It is interesting that the first mention about internal spelling variation I find is exactly about spaces.
RE: Currier A and B - Emma May Smith - 16-09-2016
(16-09-2016, 10:14 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:I don't know why the orthography would evolve. I'm seeking a model/process that fits the observation that the text changes over the course of the manuscript. Though the simplest reason for it would be that the script or language are new to being written, and the writer address problems as he finds them.
As to the nature of the changes, I'm not sure what the difference between evolution and stepwise would be here. Any orthography would be a set of discrete rules within the writer's head. Each one is either true or false at any given point in the manuscript. Multiple rules may have been changed at once, and some rules may have had a bigger effect than others.
I mean that if one reads a document in some language, then one naturally expects its orthography to be stable within this document. Are there are any real-life examples of books in a single language having their orthography evolving?
In medieval manuscripts you can't assume that the writer would even be self-consistent. A single writer may not have a stable orthography.
RE: Currier A and B - Diane - 16-09-2016
I have no way to know whether this is relevant, but I would say that throughout the imagery, and most particularly in the map, there is a distinct adjustment evident, as if the makers adjusted their visual language to the region being referred to. It makes good sense, of course, because it made that part of the map (etc.) intelligible to locals when a person needed to ask some question.
What I wonder is whether the same attitude mightn't affect the text. There has grown up a practice of cutting off each of the narratives (pictorial and textual) from the other and treating them according to very different method: the pictorial largely driven by narrative/hypothesis and the text by impeccable focus on the primary source, detailed analysis and so on.
But they are part of one whole and so I thought to mention that the imagery's analysis shows a multilingual, not mono- or bi-lingual outlook.
RE: Currier A and B - -JKP- - 27-04-2019
Before I spend hours and hours reading all the Currier information and follow-up studies, does anyone happen to know if most of the information and computational attacks comparing Curriers A and B have been at the level of tokens?
RE: Currier A and B - Koen G - 27-04-2019
(27-04-2019, 02:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Before I spend hours and hours reading all the Currier information and follow-up studies, does anyone happen to know if most of the information and computational attacks comparing Curriers A and B have been at the level of tokens?
What are you thinking about JKP?
RE: Currier A and B - -JKP- - 27-04-2019
I'm not sure yet, Koen. A certain pattern I've been looking at for a while that MAYBE made a little bit of sense today (maybe, big maybe).
I don't want to re-tread old ground unless I have to because it eats up time.
RE: Currier A and B - ReneZ - 27-04-2019
I am aware of analyses based on single characters, based on bigrams, based on n-grams from the start of a word, and based on words.
Currrier's own analysis is largely based on words, but also on frequent character combinations (not just bigrams).
If with tokens you mean words, you may look here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This is quite old, and of rather qualitative nature. The tables use the Currier alphabet (Eva did not yet exist).