+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: The Voynich Pipes (/thread-1161.html)
RE: The Voynich Pipes - stellar - 30-11-2016
This is an interesting find in Isiah the bible.
Quote:The passage saying the earth is round is Isaiah 40:22:The number 28 for the spikes could related to time and the circumference of earth or Heaven's circumference. In the prayer this phrase comes to mind, "On earth as it is in Heaven".
Quote:He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
If you divide 365,000 days by 14 spikes it equals this, 26,071.428. The circumference of earth is 24,901 mi.
365,000 days in Heaven is = to 1 day on earth.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - Anton - 30-11-2016
Well it indeed seems that it is quite difficult to know what the poet meant, if he meant anything at all and understood what he is writing about. It looks like we will hardly advance forward with this verse. If the subject of the verse could be found somewhere in prose - that could help.
The problem with the Voynich pipes remains though - the number of 28 differs from the number of 24. So if there is a connection at all, this could mean at least two scenarios:
1) the Voynich author grabbed the Bedean visual pattern of the 24-pointed circumference not understanding why the number is 24, and blindly adopted it for his own needs of 28.
2) both the Bedean and the Voynichese patterns ascend to the same visual proto-pattern (maybe of Arabic origin or otherwise). St. Bede (or his Christian predecessor) just adopted it for the 24-pointed circumference and invented the poetic allegory about Christ's cross and all that, while the origin may have been not 24-pointed.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - Anton - 30-11-2016
Quote:and different "markers" (pipes instead of "nails")
I'm not sure that Voynich pipes are not nails. Note that the shapes are not strict cylinders but rather cones, so they indeed look as nails without heads, and the heads may be intended by the green colour of the upper faces. So these could well be awkward nails - especially if the pattern was borrowed, and the Voynich author did not realize that those are nails.
I think what we can be certain in is that the nails are no more than four in number - because Christ was hanged with no more than four nails. So 24 points cannot be 24 nails. At most, they can be four nails "in motion" - in other words, 24 positions (clavorum positio!) which the four nails occupy sequentially in time (as the sky dome rotates).
RE: The Voynich Pipes - stellar - 30-11-2016
I just thought of something and I know its paranormal thinking, but could have I calculated the distance to the portal from the apex of earth pointing to the Zenith of Polaris? There is no way to prove this stuff or perhaps there is. We could gather info from astronauts about mysterious lights above the Aurora at about 1,170 miles above earth. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. miles above the apex.
26,071
- 24,901
_______
1,170 miles
RE: The Voynich Pipes - ThomasCoon - 30-11-2016
(30-11-2016, 09:34 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just thought of something and I know its paranormal thinking, but could have I calculated the distance to the portal from the apex of earth pointing to the Zenith of Polaris? There is no way to prove this stuff or perhaps there is. We could gather info from astronauts about mysterious lights above the Aurora at about 1,170 miles above earth. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. miles above the apex.
26,071
- 24,901
_______
1,170 miles
Bing puts the distance to Polaris at 23 trillion miles:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - Diane - 05-12-2016
I might mention - harking back to the manazil ('lunar mansions') that this is not the only folio where they appear.
I might also say that both Marco and Rene have neglected to mention that I've been speaking about various particular manzil, and the two systems for using them (in general, the '28' of the calendars and the formal '27' used for mathematical calculations) fairly regularly for the past eight years.
This omission seems a bit of a pity, and not because of any code of omerta, but because the failure to acknowledge that body of study means that anyone who now feels interested in a possible link between those systems andd the Voynich manuscript must waste time hunting sources already cited, re-doing the same research, though the work has already been done. In scholarship, the usual way is to read the original research, compare the opinions of those writers... and then move on. Pretending the work doesn't exist is counter-productive IMO
I guess one problem - for the many popular theories which begin by supposing the manuscript is entirely a Latin Christian cultural product, is that the system is not a European system and was not very widely known in the Latins' astronomical curriculum before the expulsions of 1492.
However, searching 'Voynich' and 'lunar mansions' and/or 'manazil' online should turn up a fair bit of the specific and detailed comment - from well before Stephen Bax became involved or the entry was added to Rene's site - it certainly wasn't there when I began treating the subject, myself.
With regard to astrononomical devices, too, Nick Pelling wrote up some very good material about instruments in posts he published in the early years of his blog (2008-2010) - and they are worth reading, and most certainly deserve proper citation and acknowledgement.
One reason I think that Voynich studies keeps running in the same old rut, re-discovering as "ideas" what were and are the conclusions of more detailed studies is that bad-old habit (now happily fading) of simply adopting and then parroting results and informed opinions, or the gist of original research, while failing to correctly attribute the original work to the right person.
It isn't easy, I know, but no purpose is served by getting it wrong, is it?
Thank god the bad-old habits are fading.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - MarcoP - 05-12-2016
Since the subject of this thread is “The Voynich Pipes”, maybe it is worth noting that a number of pipes appear in the ms. The image below presents a few examples but it is not exaustive.
(Ellie Velinska started an interesting discussion about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
I think it is reasonable to assume that there is some connection between some of these pipes. Also, the fact that at least four different circular diagrams include pipe-like elements seems to me to be likely significant. Not that I have specific ideas in mind, but possibly considering the relation between different pipes illustrations could provide some additional insight.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - VViews - 05-12-2016
Diane,
if you have published things on your blog that are relevant to this discussion, why not simply post links to them instead of writing dismissive and condescending things about others?
Of course the mansions of the moon system didn't originate in Europe, and no one here has claimed that it did.
However, your statement that the system "was not very widely known in the Latins' astronomical curriculum before the expulsions of 1492", is simply inaccurate.
I couldn't possibly list all of the pre-1492 manuscripts that feature them here, but the tables are present in many, many Ms's that deal with time reckoning and astronomy; even provincial hausbuchs and books of hours include them.
The Picatrix, which includes them, was translated into Spanish in the 11thC, and Albertus Magnus also mentions them (13th century) in his Speculum Astronomiae.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - Anton - 05-12-2016
Marco:
What I meant for this thread by "pipes" are specifically the "pipes" of f69v, not any other pipe-like objects in the VMS.
RE: The Voynich Pipes - Koen G - 05-12-2016
I think Marco has a point to the extent that at least the pipe-like things within the similar diagrams could tell us something about the specific pipes under scrutiny in this thread.
For example, the question "are they pipes at all?" is still open. We can assume with some certainty that at least within the same subset of folios, the same visual conventions are used, so comparing these diagrams can teach us something. Don't ask me what at the moment
About the "sighting tubes", by coincidence I read today that at least the Greeks used them to reduce light pollution, i.e. to really be able to focus on the light of the stars.