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+--- Thread: [or aiin] (/thread-1142.html)
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RE: [or aiin] - ThomasCoon - 23-11-2016
If I can make an observation, it appears for a long time we have all been coming to the same conclusion: there is something significant with the ordering of letters / letter groups in Voynichese, and it may also involve the letter's position in a line. These conclusions have been reached by many researchers and forum users:
- Don of Tallahassee's Groups I - VI (ex. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. among other places)
- Professor Stolfi's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paradigm
- Davidsch's, Torsten's, and Emma's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (in addition to other patterns they analyze).
- My You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. table and "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." idea (although still needing work)
- Gordon Rugg's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Torsten Timm's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. involving edit distance and word grids
- JKP is also working on a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And now this thread by Emma May Smith.
It seems we are all seeing the same, glaring detail in the text. We may be onto something here
RE: [or aiin] - -JKP- - 24-11-2016
(23-11-2016, 11:35 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If I can make an observation, it appears for a long time we have all been coming to the same conclusion: there is something significant with the ordering of letters / letter groups in Voynichese, and it may also involve the letter's position in a line. These conclusions have been reached by many researchers and forum users:
- Don of Tallahassee's Groups I - VI (ex. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. among other places)
- Professor Stolfi's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paradigm
- Davidsch's, Torsten's, and Emma's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (in addition to other patterns they analyze).
- My You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. table and "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." idea (although still needing work)
- Gordon Rugg's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Torsten Timm's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. involving edit distance and word grids
- JKP is also working on a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And now this thread by Emma May Smith.
It seems we are all seeing the same, glaring detail in the text. We may be onto something here
Thomas, I may post some of my observations this weekend, if I can find the time (weekends are not days off for me, but I do get some extra time on Saturday nights). I have some results that are directly relevant to this thread.
RE: [or aiin] - Davidsch - 24-11-2016
If you have time take the time to read and check You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
I put in a huge amount of energy and time in that research,
so if you have any questions, or remarks make sure you read first and ask questions only after that.
The research is not yet finished, but shows an overview of the word structure.
RE: [or aiin] - Emma May Smith - 24-11-2016
I think that these word combinations are more due to the characters in the words rather than the specific words themselves. So, for example, while [or] does come before [aiin] regularly, the same is true for many words ending in r. Sam has posted other examples of the same.
It may be that this line of research is still fruitful, with statistics for all pairs like: "words beginning ch before words beginning q", with all permutations of characters, first and last in a word, and before and after. But specific words are only a subset of these.
RE: [or aiin] - Torsten - 25-11-2016
Asymmetric word pairs do occur because of two different effects.
The first effect is that a sequence of two words is matching a common word. This is for instance true for or aiin, s aiin or r aiin. (Even if choldaiin occurs only once for the VMS also chol daiin belongs to this group. This is because of other similar words like oldaiin and chodaiin.)
saiin (144 times) aiins (-)
s aiin (40 times) aiin s (4 times)
raiin (75 times) aiinr (-)
r aiin (18 times) aiin r (-)
The second effect is that two similar words do follow after each other. This is for instance true for sheedy qokeedy, qokeey qokedy or okaiin otaiin. (Usually the word with the smaller edit distance to daiin, or and chedy and therefore the more frequent word comes first.)
sheedy qokeedy (9 : 0)
shedy qokedy (21 : 9)
shedy qokeedy (16 : 6)
qokeey qokedy (9 : 1)
okaiin otaiin (6 : 0)
A similar effect can also be observed for three word sequences. In 24 out of 35 cases these repeated three word sequences use at least two words which are either spelled the same or very similarly (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
RE: [or aiin] - ThomasCoon - 11-02-2017
I am bumping this thread because the statistics here are incredibly important.
RE: [or aiin] - Anton - 11-02-2017
Quote:According to voynichese.com, the word or occurs 366 times and the word aiin occurs 470 times. Simply by chance we should expect multiple instances where the two words occur adjacently.
I see no particular reason why we should expect that "simply by chance". As an example, words "a" and "the" are both in top-10 of most frequent English words, but I doubt that they are often seen adjacent to each other.
About different frequences when we reverse the order. I guess it is much the same in natural languages. For example, "the" and "be" are two most common English words. And I reasonably expect that "be the" is much more frequent than "the be". And so on.
What Torsten writes about composites is far less trivial. But there is the question of spaces.
RE: [or aiin] - Davidsch - 22-03-2017
(11-02-2017, 09:56 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:What Torsten writes about composites is far less trivial. But there is the question of spaces.
Spaces is an entirely different discussion, let's go back to the subject [aiin]
Perhaps trivial, but look at ain, aiin, dain and daiin.
We can find some oi and oii but those counts are very low. The ei and eii occurs only a few times.
Let ain = 1 then dain = d1 and kain = k1
(or let aiin =3 then daiin = d3)
From the perspective of ciphers and time, how probable or improbable could it be that:
Let ain =123 then daiin=1223
Let dain = d456 then daiin=d4556
or is aiin a homophone which equals ain?
RE: [or aiin] - cvetkakocj@rogers.com - 05-09-2021
(22-11-2016, 10:42 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.According to voynichese.com, the word or occurs 366 times and the word aiin occurs 470 times. Simply by chance we should expect multiple instances where the two words occur adjacently. However, the phrase or aiin is much more common than aiin or. This suggests that its occurrence is important in some way.
It could be a set phrase with a single meaning (such as parce que in French). It could also be a sign that one order is grammatical and the other is not.
(Interestingly for my hypothesis that words are transformed at the beginning of lines, a few instances of sor aiin occur.)
Although even two word phrases are not terrifically common, I wonder if any other two words show obvious signs of bias toward one specific order. It could be that we could use them to divide words into groups according to the positions they take in such phrases.