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+--- Thread: Considered as visionary art (/thread-1061.html)
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Considered as visionary art - Charles Packer - 10-11-2016
Excuse my dropping in from out of left field, but I read in Nature
last week a review of a new book about the manuscript. Now I've
been studying Rene Zandbergen's gorgeous website devoted to it.
Has anybody ever suggested that the VMS is no more (or less) than
a prodigious piece of what nowadays we call outsider or visionary
art, that happens to include a faux script as part of its
invention? If not, I'd be glad to elaborate on the notion, drawing
on my background in psychology and art appreciation.
RE: Considered as visionary art - -JKP- - 10-11-2016
(10-11-2016, 02:33 AM)Charles Packer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Excuse my dropping in from out of left field, but I read in Nature
last week a review of a new book about the manuscript. Now I've
been studying Rene Zandbergen's gorgeous website devoted to it.
Has anybody ever suggested that the VMS is no more (or less) than
a prodigious piece of what nowadays we call outsider or visionary
art, that happens to include a faux script as part of its
invention? If not, I'd be glad to elaborate on the notion, drawing
on my background in psychology and art appreciation.
I sometimes get smacked when I suggest that much of it may be original rather than copied from older sources (obviously older sources have also been consulted) and I do believe that even if the ideas and subject matter aren't original, the presentation certainly is, at least in some places.
It's also been suggested by me (and probably many others) that the text may have been added by someone else or at a later date. I can see at least two different hands in the main text and I believe Currier suggested it was several hands, so obviously more than one person was involved which might mean that it was created over a number of years or decades.
I haven't read Gordon Rugg's work, but I have seen the video where they mention his grille system of creating faux text and there are some threads about that on the forum (and probably on people's blogs).
Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find that when something has been studied in depth for almost a century by cryptologists, paleographers, linguists, artists, and medieval historians, that one has to dig a bit to come up with new insights and novel interpretations of the manuscript. Despite the effort it takes, I think it's worth it and new points of view are always welcome.
RE: Considered as visionary art - Sam G - 10-11-2016
(10-11-2016, 02:33 AM)Charles Packer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anybody ever suggested that the VMS is no more (or less) than
a prodigious piece of what nowadays we call outsider or visionary
art, that happens to include a faux script as part of its
invention?
Yes.
RE: Considered as visionary art - Koen G - 10-11-2016
(10-11-2016, 02:57 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I sometimes get smacked when I suggest that much of it may be original rather than copied from older sources
The hypothesis that some, or indeed all of the content is original has been the dominant view ever since Voynich, and still is... Invention is cited more often as an explanation than tradition. In fact , I believe many people still have problems letting go of the idea of an auteur even as a thought experiment. Of course I'm not talking about you, I know you always consider various angles. But "original content" is far from the minority view and is indeed the first impression many newcomers get.
It's a normal question to ask when you first see this work: who invented this weird thing and why?
Charles - like JKP and Sam say, this is one of the ideas newcomers regularly get. As a first impression of the manuscript, it is as good as any, but it will remain a general impression until it can actually explain those things which have remained unexplained after a century of scrutiny...
RE: Considered as visionary art - davidjackson - 10-11-2016
Hi Charles and welcome to the forums!
The idea of a manuscript as visionary art was developed in our modern era by Serafini in his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Some people have linked the two manuscripts together by postulating they were both created for the same reason; however, 15th century cultural mores hardly seem appropriate for the translation of the Seraphinianus paradigm to the Voynich.
Still, who knows?
(It would be interesting to carry out a transcription of the CS and see whether the stats produced were similar to the Voynich. This has not been done as far as I know)
RE: Considered as visionary art - Diane - 12-11-2016
JKP
Quote:I sometimes get smacked when I suggest that much of it may be original rather than copied from older sources
this made me smile. The 'authorial' idea was absolutely the only idea acceptable around 2010-2013. Even saying something fairly unremarkable - that it was a compilation from older sources - created something of a furore back then - the 'compilation' bit as well as a the 'older sources' bit. But in those days it was necessary to explain that Latin Europe traded directly with Egypt in the medieval period, and that Europeans were in the east before da Gama. We've actually come a long way in the past few years.
I guess ideas rise and fall in popularity, but it is amusing to see that for you to voice an opinion near-universal just a few years ago now sees you 'smacked'. [Sorry -
]In any case the written part of the text could prove to be an original composition; why not? We have no way to date tht part of the content because, unlike the pictorial text, the written offers testimony to nothing except the style in which the fifteenth-century scribes' hands were trained. I wish reports on the paleography were a little less biased - the 'humanist-influenced hand' idea gets a lot of air, but it's not the only opinion, nor necessarily the best opinion.
RE: Considered as visionary art - bi3mw - 04-12-2021
(10-11-2016, 02:10 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The idea of a manuscript as visionary art was developed in our modern era by Serafini in his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Some people have linked the two manuscripts together by postulating they were both created for the same reason;
Italian artist Luigi Serafini gives a look inside the 40th anniversary edition of his Codex Seraphinianus.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , 40th Anniversary Edition
RE: Considered as visionary art - merrimacga - 09-06-2023
(10-11-2016, 02:33 AM)Charles Packer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has anybody ever suggested that the VMS is no more (or less) than
a prodigious piece of what nowadays we call outsider or visionary
art, that happens to include a faux script as part of its
invention? If not, I'd be glad to elaborate on the notion, drawing
on my background in psychology and art appreciation.
I think I would hesitate to call the VM visionary art, which is a relatively new art form. Carl Jung is credited with coining the term in 1933 in his book, Modern Man in Search of a Soul. Wikipedia has a good definition, quoting or paraphrasing one of the most prominent visionary artists today, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "Visionary art is art that purports to transcend the physical world and portray a wider vision of awareness including spiritual or mystical themes, or is based in such experiences." Another prominent visionary artist is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I'm a huge fan of his work and have collected many of his prints over the years. Some people alternatively refer to visionary art as psychedelic art or sacred art (click the links and you'll see what I mean, the styles are very typical of the art form) and such artists are often said to be self-taught. Outsider art is also new and such artists are also said to be self-taught; the term was coined as the title of a book by art critic Roger Cardinal in 1972.
A more appropriate term for the VM might be worldbuilding (or constructed world), based on the unidentified plants and language. The term is fairly self-explanatory and is also relatively new, having been coined by the Edinburgh Review in 1820. It could be applied to the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, The Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland and the Codex Seraphinianus, amongst innumerable others. Sir Thomas More's Utopia (1516) is considered an early example of worldbuilding.
RE: Considered as visionary art - Koen G - 09-06-2023
Would pre-renaissance worldbuilding (if such a thing exists) not always have a strong moralistic component?
RE: Considered as visionary art - merrimacga - 09-06-2023
Hmm, possibly, probably. One can never underestimate the power or reach of the Medieval church. You did mean religious when you said moralistic, right?
When I read the question, my first thought was of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal, though that was written much later in 1729. And, yes, I have a copy (modern). I know it's a satire and I'm pretty sure he didn't really mean any of it. Reasonably sure. Hmm. Before that, he also wrote Gulliver's Travels, which could be considered worldbuilding and it was also considered a satire. And Swift was an Anglican cleric.
Then I think of one closer to the VM's timeframe: The Travels of Marco Polo (c. 1300). It wasn't worldbuilding but was a popular success, though fantastical and many believed it to be fictional.
The original versions of many of what we consider classic fairy tales much older and were very dark and disturbing. For example, an early version of Sleeping Beauty has the sleeping princess raped by the prince and she wakes after she gives birth to twins when they start suckling on her. They weren't worldbuilding but if they existed, it seems reasonable to assume other works might be as well.
I'm not sure the books noted had a strong, moralistic component, though they were likely read that way, but even if so, the VM may be tamer, if we ever figure it out. The public, especially the lower classes, throughout time has had a taste for the - shall we say - exotic and fantastical, even crude and vulgar. I'm sure someone here could come up with some better examples.