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+--- Thread: bathing architecture in f78v (/thread-1050.html)
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - nickpelling - 13-09-2017
My opinion is that the Q13b pages are more representational, while the Q13a pages are more abstract. The Morgan MS looks like one of the best fits for Q13b yet, nice find. :-)
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - bi3mw - 13-09-2017
(13-09-2017, 05:39 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While some of the "pools" illustrations could be literal, most of the "tubes" don't seem to represent anything realistic. So, I tend to agree with the idea of an allegorical interpretation. ...
I agree. An example: When comparing Folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , I got the impression that a repetitive sequence of something is represented. Even the corresponding text seems to confirm this. Of course, pure speculation.
![[Image: Comp_%20f84v_f78r.png]](http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/Comp_%20f84v_f78r.png)
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Koen G - 07-11-2017
There's somewhat similar architecture in Haley MS 4431, which was made under the supervision of Christine de Pizan You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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This example is much less striking than the one shown by Marco, but might still be of interest. According to the description it's "Pegasus flying over the nine Muses".
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - -JKP- - 08-11-2017
I don't know if the connections between the pools in the VMS are literal, allegorical, or both, but natural thermal pools ARE like this.
I've seen two of them (in North America), where there are pockets of thermal pools (and colder streams also), where people go in the winter, especially, and soak in hot thermals in the nude.
So... there are natural thermal springs, even in this century, that are pretty much the same as those depicted in the VMS. They have parts that are bricked in with stones from the surrounding area, parts that are natural, and many pools that are connected to one another by streams that flow like little rivulets or waterfalls.
The VMS drawings could be from any one of hundreds (maybe thousands) of natural bathing pools. Using Google search, I discovered they are all over the Alps, eastern Europe, southern Europe, and the rest of the world. Unfortunately, quite a few of them have been remade with modern architecture, so you can't see what they looked like in the middle ages, but there are still many in protected areas or hike-in areas that haven't changed very much over the centuries.
The length of the rivulets in the VMS drawings might be extended to fit them to the page, but water that flows from bathing pool to pool, sometimes by aqueducts, sometimes by natural streams, is not unusual.
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Diane - 08-11-2017
JKP
Perhaps you might try to narrow the range by finding out where women wore headdresses of that sort, and wore them when getting wet. Cross-referencing these factors with specifically iconographic ones (big thighs, incredibly narrow shanks) should help narrow the field. Then of course, you'd be looking for drawings which include all those things and the berry-like motifs, and in addition the little pipe-like segments ornamented by dots or dashes. If you can explain the significance of these patternings, too, you should have the pictures' origin defined quite narrowly.
It is an understandable thing that people tend to define a picture by recognisable objects, but provenancing a picture isn't about what a thing is that is in the picture - more about how and why its appearance is as it is... all of it.
Cheers.
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - -JKP- - 08-11-2017
(08-11-2017, 06:52 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP
Perhaps you might try to narrow the range by finding out where women wore headdresses of that sort, and wore them when getting wet. Cross-referencing these factors with specifically iconographic ones (big thighs, incredibly narrow shanks) should help narrow the field. ...
Cheers.
...
It is an understandable thing that people tend to define a picture by recognisable objects, but provenancing a picture isn't about what a thing is that is in the picture - more about how and why its appearance is as it is... all of it.
I already have pretty extensive databases of headdresses (both male and female), faces, body types, tunics, etc. I try to consider all these factors. What I lack is the time to write it all up.
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - MarcoP - 13-03-2018
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Wladimir D has posted this great observation:
(13-03-2018, 09:37 AM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have a question whether there are glass (transparent) windows in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Why are they blue if the water is green? Or is it tiles/mosaic? Another question, is why in each "window" there is a hole / circle? Please - ideas!
Each of the windows seems to have a circular hole in the vertical surface painted blue. My guess is that the vertical surface is a semi-transparent stone like alabaster, to let light in, and the hole is for airing (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Rhodes).
Of course, actual examples of windows with similar circular openings in ancient works of art would be helpful...
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Koen G - 13-03-2018
Don't you think it could just be an evolution from a Balneis example? The image you posted earlier (top left) also combines green water with blue parts on the windows:
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Anton - 13-03-2018
The pipe that is attached on the left has blue flowing through it. And note that there are traces of blue over the nymphs' thighs. Same thing on f81r.
RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Diane - 13-03-2018
For what it's worth, I think the 'architectural' style on this folio is a reflection of the copyist's being too clever by half and trying to render the original, fairly amorphous boundaries according to his ideas and habits - an understandable alteration from the original but a habit of re-interpretation which is not uncommon in copyists or in readers when confronted with something entirely 'alien' to their own ways of seeing.
That copyist's hand appears very briefly; here and in the next folio. The pronounced difference in tone is very clear if you lay the 'bathy-' folios side by side. There is a sort of three-D impression again in folio 75r, but the aim is gained by very different technique: doubled lines and shading to define the banks of the waterway.
It is telling that the draughtsman/copyist who made the other drawing so 'bath-like' did have in his repertoire a technique - however rudimentary - for rendering architectural forms as three-dimensional. I have always meant to count the number of times - in total - that a similar technique is used in the manuscript. Those I've noticed were all in the late stratum: this detail, arguably one in the map's inset 'minimap' (the content of the north roundel). Not many.