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bathing architecture in f78v - Printable Version

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RE: bathing architecture in f78v - davidjackson - 10-11-2016

Quote: >>I find the perspective in this particular VM image so very weird. The women are sitting on top in green water and then below there's the windows with something blue behind them

I've always thought that this is simply a lack of perspective -  I imagined a sort of above-ground pool with windows in the wall.
But I agree there must be a specific reason between the green and the blue water, but alas, this could simply be something cultural from the time.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Koen G - 10-11-2016

If the walls are supposed to encircle the green water then it's not just a lack of perspective - it's a different perspective. Like Picasso Smile

JKP's example shows well that some visual tricks were used to show bodies of water inside a structure, and while this isn't exactly photorealistic, we understand quite well what is meant.

So I would say that either
  1. perspective is used in a way we are not used to
  2. the image is meant literally, but we do not understand exactly what kind of structure is depicted
  3. the image is symbolic in some way
One possible explanation is that the perspective shows various points of view at once. The green body of water is shown as if we are looking down on it, while the walls are shown from the perspective of someone standing on the ground and seeing the blue water in the "lake" through the windows.

On the other hand, the top edge of the wall seems to form the top edge of the pool as well.
And to complicate matters even further, some of the nymphs have blue streaks on them, perhaps indicating that either the blue or the green was added later, or someone changed his mind halfway through.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - davidjackson - 10-11-2016

I think it's simply an attempt to show the outside of the baths, whilst concentrating on the people inside.

Perspective wasn't the strongest point of medieval artists, who preferred to concentrate on getting their points across. Sort of similar to this one:
[Image: medieval-water-cropped-2-1024x549.png]
(Harley 4979)

Why green and blue? I don't know, but I am sure the colours were not picked at random. Green signified, amongst other things: fertility, renewal, hope, etc in medieval Christian art. I expect the colour was picked for the water for a specific reason.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Koen G - 10-11-2016

For sure, that's a weird perspective as well, but we understand more or less what's going on: the river with fish is driving wheels and there's a woodland or orchard next to it. If I had to draw that in a small space like this, it would probably end up worse Smile

The symbolism of green is probably rather universal - it is for the same connotations that Osiris is very often green:
[Image: osrsis_1.jpg]

There's of course also the mapmakers' habit of differentiating salt water by coloring it green. If the ladies aren't literal, then one of the more likely options is that these are schematic representations of seas, lakes, rivers and canals. Though it's hard to explain this thing from any perspective...

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - davidjackson - 10-11-2016

I wouldn't say "the mapmakers' habit of differentiating salt water by coloring it green" as if it were a universal constant - I've flipped through a few medieval maps and it seems to be mainly ones from the British Isles that have this habit, usually distinguishing between rivers and sea.

Ie this 1460 illustration from La fleur des histoires doesn't have colour distinction
[Image: droppedImage_8.png]
Nor does this late 15th century Germanic mappamundi by Kopie von Claudius:
[Image: Kopie+von+Claudius_Ptolemy-_The_Worldgg.jpg]
Or the 1457 Genoese world map:
[Image: GenoeseWorldMap.jpg]

By contrast, the earlier English 13th century Hereford mappamundi does use the two colour schemes:
[Image: link_Ic4BBxSlzmfSJQLZgr0ZaotjCZjSpLdv,w300h223.jpg]
As does the 1250 map of Britain by Matthew Paris:
[Image: 319matthewparismapsmall.jpg]
And this late 15th century map of northern England:
[Image: a7bb7992768569af8e2ef2670d8db5d7.jpg]

I'm sure there are counter-examples, but at this period in time it seems to be a stylistic thing based upon the school you were trained in.

One interesting thing I've found now on several different 15th and 16th century maps is the use of blue on creatures to indicate that they are maritime. See ie this double finned siren in Hortus Sanitatis (1491) (and the motif is repeated on other illustrations of mythical creatures in the same book):
[Image: f3921d1a1fa76c12c4edd44737080f96.jpg]


The application of blue to some of those nymphs is not accidental and must have been added with a purpose in mind.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - R. Sale - 11-11-2016

Regarding the matter of architectural arches, instead of the water's color. There is an arched pattern, much like the architecture in the photo of Bath, to be found as one of the VMs Zodiac tub patterns on the outer ring of Dark Aries at 8 o'clock.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - -JKP- - 11-11-2016

(11-11-2016, 08:12 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding the matter of architectural arches, instead of the water's color. There is an arched pattern, much like the architecture in the photo of Bath, to be found as one of the VMs Zodiac tub patterns on the outer ring of Dark Aries at 8 o'clock.


Yes, there's also one (that appears to have been added later in a different pen) on the tub above light-red Taurus.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - MarcoP - 13-09-2017

After reading You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I went searching for copies closer in time to the VMS.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  (Italy, 1400 ca) presents several illustrations in which the pools are decorated with a number of small arched openings.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - Koen G - 13-09-2017

Wow Marco, the one on the left is really similar!
I remain convinced that the nymphs (and "baths") are metaphorical, but this image does make it seem plausible that whoever drew the pool pages was at least familiar with (this particular?) Balneis manuscripts.

RE: bathing architecture in f78v - MarcoP - 13-09-2017

(13-09-2017, 04:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I remain convinced that the nymphs (and "baths") are metaphorical, but this image does make it seem plausible that whoever drew the pool pages was at least familiar with (this particular?) Balneis manuscripts.

While some of the "pools" illustrations could be literal, most of the "tubes" don't seem to represent anything realistic. So, I tend to agree with the idea of an allegorical interpretation. Of course, as you write, this doesn't rule out that the De Balneis tradition was a model or at least a source of inspiration.