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+--- Thread: Pond creatures (f79v) (/thread-473.html)
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - R. Sale - 29-10-2020
Melusine is a fresh-water fairy, so the aquatic association is natural. However not all artists are consistent, so serpent-like depictions / descriptions do exist. She also flies, so wings are sometimes included, potentially tending toward draconian traits - the dragon flying over the castle of Lusignan. So, perhaps it might be better to call her a spirit or a fairy.
Is she in or is she out? Mermaids are fish-like from the waist down. And generally they stay that way. They don't transition to a fully human form. Melusine does make the transformation, back and forth one day each week.
How might an artist depict the transformation process in a single illustration? By finding a way to show it in mid-process.
Don't forget the de Metz text, Harley 334, which has origins in Paris and has illustrations with cosmic and pond-related connections, and is dated to the same time as the Golden Fleece and the Sainte Hostie de Dijon. (This also coincides with the latter part of the Anglo-Burgundian occupation of Paris and the VMs parchment dates - single source calculation.)
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - arca_libraria - 31-10-2020
So I realise it's borderline trolling posting the TRH in this forum, but forgive me, I have the cutest weird little pond creatures.
Chantilly, Musée Condé, MS 65, f. 113v, the 'Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry', purgatory image [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.].
![[Image: 345px-Folio_113v_-_Purgatory.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Folio_113v_-_Purgatory.jpg/345px-Folio_113v_-_Purgatory.jpg)
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - -JKP- - 31-10-2020
Arca, that little pond critter that's biting the thigh is like the one in the Lauber manuscript I mentioned in my Melusine blog.
Look at the distinctive forehead. It's not common (it's down near the bottom, more simply drawn but same basic critter):
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RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - Aga Tentakulus - 12-11-2020
Does the region say more than books?
Or no 100 metres without mythology.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - -JKP- - 13-11-2020
Very charming village and the murals are wonderful. I notice there were quite a few medallions, also, some with spirals.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - pedestrian - 13-11-2020
(12-11-2020, 10:50 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does the region say more than books?
Or no 100 metres without mythology.
Hi Aga, what region would that be then? The Three Leagues? Graubünden?
This mural you posted:
looks like it's trying to be an Ibex from the coat of arms of the League of God's House, a Wilder Mann who looks like he came from the League of the Ten Jurisdictions' one, and possibly the cross of the Grey League. But where does the twin-tailed mermaid come into it? A family device?
Or am I barking up the wrong Canton?
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - bi3mw - 13-11-2020
Not only "fish women" but also "snake women" are depicted on house facades.
Melusine at the Lucerne Wine Market. The Venusian woman Verena in the representation as a biblical paradise snake.
In the oldest interpretation, the "Melusine" was a woman who was a woman on top, a snake on the bottom, and winged, that is, a winged snakewoman. Later, the snakewoman became a fishwife.
Basel, Universitätsbibliothek / O I 18 – Thüring von Ringoltingen, Geschichte von der schönen Melusina, 1471, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - -JKP- - 13-11-2020
Pedestrian, it's the village of Samnaun in NE Switzerland/Austria/Italy border (I don't know exactly where the border was in early 1400s, but it moved around a little in the following years). The main road past the village is Talstrasse. It was established by the Romans and was a smuggling crossroads. Now it is a ski resort.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - R. Sale - 13-11-2020
Thanks for the Basel image (just above), it is an interesting interpretation. I'm not sure what all the other extraneous images of the general 'mermaid' type are supposed to suggest. Should we include any Christian images, etc.?
The real comparison is with Harley 334 f 57. From Paris, 2nd quarter of the 1400s. It has a similar form with companion animals / fish. And they are not chowing down on a corpse. 'Cute' little things. What are they? Wolves, alligators, whatever? The relevance of Harley 334 with the VMs is enhanced by the results of the 'Cosmic Comparison'. BNF Fr. 565 originates in Paris in the 1st quarter of the 1400s.
There are many interpretations for the classical half-female, half-something images and one of them is the story of Melusine. And within this story, there are multiple variations, like many other mythologies. The Valois maternal origins through Luxembourg maintained a version of this mythology. A primary example of this would be the work of Jean d'Arras.
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And, since he died in 1394, his works need to be placed somewhat earlier, and reproduced afterward. I don't see that this particular work has survived, but later copies perhaps. So we don't yet know how this earlier replica of Melusine was depicted for sure. However there is that representation in Tres riches heuers where she flies over the castle of Lusignan and she is all dragon.
If there is one lesson to be taken from the Cosmic Comparison investigation into cloud bands and cosmic boundaries, it is that every artist, [every major source of image production,] does things in their own way. So all the illustrations of Melusine are individualistic, depending on the time, place and version of the myth's interpretation. Faithfully copied, nearly identical representations are the last thing to be expected. Otherwise, she'd be stuck as a flying dragon.
The provenance backstory here is the connection with the French duke, Jean de Berry, for three of these texts, plus the later connection of the fourth (Harley 334) to Paris as well. This tends to indicate a slightly later time, more in line with another significant 'Valois' event which was the institution of the Burgundian Order of the Golden Fleece (1430). This is another proposed comparison with VMs f80v.
None of these comparisons is perfect, without a doubt, clearly determined and unambiguous. They are clumsy, cartoonish and sometimes clearly designed to be ambiguous (White Aries). None will stand on its own. Combined and supplemented, however, they will stand together.
The Valois state of Burgundy was the light of the north throughout much of the 1400s. There was significant connection between Paris and Dijon. Events have the potential to occur in a single lifetime and may even match the dating for the latter part of the C-14 results. There is every reason to consider that the creation of the VMs took place in that environment and incorporated those elements into the VMs, potentially with a purpose that remains to be seen.
RE: Pond creatures (f79v) - bi3mw - 13-11-2020
Here the link to the house:
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