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+--- Thread: Water, earth and air (/thread-2185.html)
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-08-2026
eggyk, I basically agree with you. The only thing I wanted to point out is that the terms can be confusing, given that—while that scallop-shaped band could indeed serve as the sphere of air—its primary and true function was to separate the celestial and earthly realms. And that band represents, in many manuscripts, and also in the Voynich, the outermost sphere of the medieval universe: that of the fixed stars.
The reason I challenged Stolfi is that he advocates a cosmology featuring waters above—as described in Genesis—a view that is anachronistic given the Aristotelian understanding of the universe, which was already commonplace by the 15th century.
Since the Church did not wish to contradict what was stated in the Bible—even though it was already partly accepted that the text should not be interpreted literally—scholastic theologians and astronomers posited the existence of a ninth crystalline sphere where there was otherwise nothing; only frozen water.
RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 15-08-2026
The Aristotelian cosmos is depicted with planets and/or planetary spheres as part of its essential structure. The cosmic structure presented in the VMs-"Oresme" comparison has only scattered stars. All planetary indicators are missing.
The concentric depiction of elements in Aristotelian representations includes fire, which is also absent from the VMs-"Oresme"-"de Metz" examples using an *inverted* T/O structure.
The cosmic structure present in the comparison is too simplified to be Aristotelian.
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-08-2026
I'm not sure exactly which comparison you're referring to.
Any educated person of the XV century was familiar with the Aristotelian theory of the cosmos. The fact that they didn't depict all the spheres in the illustrations doesn't mean they weren't aware of them. In Oresme’s cosmos, we see only the Earth and the sphere of the fixed stars, represented by the scallop-shaped band. The illustrator has filled the entire space with stars to create an impression of depth, since it is a sphere and the stars appear as if pinned to it.
There is no need to draw all the spheres to recognize the Aristotelian system.
RE: Water, earth and air - Jorge_Stolfi - 15-08-2026
(14-08-2026, 04:52 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The reason I challenged Stolfi is that he advocates a cosmology featuring waters above—as described in Genesis—a view that is anachronistic given the Aristotelian understanding of the universe, which was already commonplace by the 15th century.
What people believed at the time is not important. What matters is that the diagram from Oresme's book, which is being proposed as the source of f68v3, depicted the Biblical (not Aristotelian) cosmology: without the sphere of fire and separate spheres for the planets, and instead with the "vault of the sky" separating the stars and planets from the "waters above".
The diagram of f68v3 closely matches the Biblical cosmology of that Oresme diagram, except that the cloud-band was turned into that "thick nebuly line", and eight "spiral arms" were added, crossing the "vault of the sky".
Until we find another version of the Biblical cosmology with similar "spiral arms", we must assume that these were an invention of the Author. If that is true, we should conclude that it was the Author (not the Scribe) who chose the hypothetical Oresme-like source and determined that the rest of the diagram should be copied from it. In any case, it must have been the Author who defined all the Voynichese text in that diagram.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 15-08-2026
It doesn't seem like a good start to say that it doesn't matter what people of the time thought.
It is highly unlikely that folio f68v3 is a copy or that its authors drew inspiration from Oresme’s cosmos (BNF Fr. 565, fol. 23). This last illustration does not feature a conventional T-O map; instead, we see the lower half of the Earth covered in water—reflecting the view held by Oresme and the educated public in general. The T-O map on that page of the Voynich manuscript, however, appears to be a conventional map of the three known continents. Note that the lines of the T are straight, whereas in Oresme they are curved to simulate sphericity.
I believe you are referring to the scallop-shaped band as the celestial vault—a point on which we would agree—but we would disagree on the idea that the stars lie beneath that band, because the fixed stars are actually pinned to it. Oresme, one of the great medieval intellectuals, produced a translation of Aristotle that he annotated and corrected in certain respects, yet he did not base it on biblical thought. As a bishop and theologian, he did not wish to contradict Genesis; like others, he envisioned a crystalline sphere—made of frozen water or crystal—situated above the sphere of the fixed stars.
In the illustration, we see the scalloped band and the star-filled space between it and the Earth. Nothing else can be done in a two-dimensional plane, yet this represents a three-dimensional sphere, and the fixed stars mark the boundary of the medieval universe. The addition of the crystalline sphere—a feature that would appear during the Renaissance—was rare in this context.
The spiral arms visible on folio f68v3 of the Voynich manuscript are a simple graphic device used to simulate motion. This is what misled Newbold into believing they represented the Andromeda galaxy. But it does not originate with the Voynich. There are other medieval examples, such as one cited on ReneZ's page.
RE: Water, earth and air - Linda - 15-08-2026
(15-08-2026, 05:21 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. It is highly unlikely that folio f68v3 is a copy or that its authors drew inspiration from Oresme’s cosmos (BNF Fr. 565, fol. 23). This last illustration does not feature a conventional T-O map; instead, we see the lower half of the Earth covered in water—reflecting the view held by Oresme and the educated public in general. The T-O map on that page of the Voynich manuscript, however, appears to be a conventional map of the three known continents. Note that the lines of the T are straight, whereas in Oresme they are curved to simulate sphericity.
F68v3 still has an upside down T, it is rotated, Asia would be the part on the bottom with the extra writing.
RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 15-08-2026
There is a fundamental difference in structure and purpose. Standard T/O representations have Asia in the top half, and Europe and Africa in the bottom quarters. This representation is geographic. In contrast, INVERTED T/O representations have water in the bottom half, and land and air(?) in the top quarters. This representation is elemental.
The VMs conforms to the inverted T/O structure, but it is not a pictorial representation, and we cannot read the words.
The VMs cosmos has no planetary indicators. Aren't planets a necessary and definitive part of an Aristotelian cosmic structure? Their absence is one of the aspects that demonstrate the similarities in the comparison between the VMs, BNF Fr. 565, and Harley 334.
The specific nature of the cloud band doesn't matter. Pretty or ugly, as long as it is recognized as a cosmic boundary, it has performed its function. There are no stars attached to it. In a sense, as a cosmic boundary, it represents the limits of what is knowable.
Then there is the wheel with eight curved spokes. There is only one comparable historical source for this structure - Shirakatsi's Eight Phases of the Moon. We may never know how that structure made it into the VMs, but we know where it came from.
The VMs artist has taken two disparate astronomical structures and paired them together, to make a sort of Franken-cosmos. Call it deception or trickery or idiosyncratic sophistication. It is an intentionally constructed oxymoron. It is a revelation of what is required to play the VMs artist's game. Failure to recognize *both* of the parts is like a joke that is "over one's head" - as they say.
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 16-08-2026
I do not deny that the author of f68v3 might have drawn inspiration from the Armenian manuscript, yet without the computational complexity of this codex. Simply because the spirals and helical motion convey the sense of celestial movement.
The cosmic boundary, as you call it, is not an abstract, empty boundary. It is precisely where the stars are located, as if pinned there. It is simply the sphere of the fixed stars of the medieval universe. The fact that we see the stars scattered in the illustrations does not mean they are just anywhere. The medieval universe is ordered and concentric.
RE: Water, earth and air - Jorge_Stolfi - 16-08-2026
(15-08-2026, 05:21 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It doesn't seem like a good start to say that it doesn't matter what people of the time thought.I meant that the VMS Author could well have chosen to use the "Biblical" cosmology even though it would not be the "consensus view" of scholars of the time. Just as he used "months" of uniform 30 days (or 2 x 15 days) in the Zodiac, instead of the 28/30/31 schema that everybody used.
The claim is not that the VMS figure was based on Oresme's conception of the cosmos. He surely was aware of the Aristotelian model too. The claim is that it was copied from a specific figure of some copy of Oresme's book that depicts the "Biblical" model.
Quote:It is highly unlikely that folio f68v3 is a copy or that its authors drew inspiration from Oresme’s cosmos (BNF Fr. 565, fol. 23). This last illustration does not feature a conventional T-O map; instead, we see the lower half of the Earth covered in water—reflecting the view held by Oresme and the educated public in general. The T-O map on that page of the Voynich manuscript, however, appears to be a conventional map of the three known continents.
Conventional T-O maps usually have the undivided half-circle (representing Asia) at the top. The VMS "T-O Map" is not like that; is oriented exactly like Oresme's map, with the undivided half-circle at the bottom.
Quote:Note that the lines of the T are straight, whereas in Oresme they are curved to simulate sphericity.On some copies of Oresme's book, the dividing lines of that diagram are straight. Like the one in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Quote:The spiral arms visible on folio f68v3 of the Voynich manuscript are a simple graphic device used to simulate motion. This is what misled Newbold into believing they represented the Andromeda galaxy. But it does not originate with the Voynich. There are other medieval examples, such as one cited on ReneZ's page.
(15-08-2026, 10:12 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is only one comparable historical source for this structure - [Anania] Shirakatsi's Eight Phases of the Moon. We may never know how that structure made it into the VMs, but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks @R.Sale, I had missed that reference!
That Shirakatsi diagram does not have much resemblance to f68v3 other than the eight curved "spokes" with writing along them. The center is a simple circle, without the T-O division, starry sphere, and cloud-band. And the arms are curved in the opposite sense.
But, still, that Shirakatsi diagram could have been the source for the curved arms of f68v3.
That raises the intriguing possibility that the VMS Author was Armenian, not Western European. That could explain why the language of the month names in the Zodiac are so hard to identify, and why he chose to invent the Voynichese script from scratch instead of using Latin letters.
My faithful Lalamo claims that 80% of the manuscripts produced in 15th century Armenia are on paper, but 20% are on parchment -- which could be calf, sheep, or goat skin.
So Beinecke MS 408 could have been scribed in Armenia, and could have had Armenian owners for 100-150 years after that...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 16-08-2026
I don't see biblical cosmology anywhere in the Voynich. No matter how much you repeat it, it won't be true.
It is true that the T of the T-O map on f68v3 is inverted, just as in Oresme BNF Fr 565 (a detail that had escaped my notice), but one cannot claim that the Voynich diagram is a copy of any Oresme illustration featuring the biblical model.
The authorship of the Voynich manuscript has shifted from China to Armenia. We are getting closer to Europe.