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+--- Thread: f82v: those rainbows (/thread-1261.html)
RE: f82v: those rainbows - Koen G - 06-02-2019
Ah yes, I'd recognize the Haguenau style from a mile away.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - bi3mw - 23-12-2020
Here is an article with the topic "How many colors were there in a medieval rainbow ?"
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RE: f82v: those rainbows - ReneZ - 23-12-2020
This whole rainbow discussion has been mildly 'bugging' me for a while.
Let me see if I get this right. There are (proposed) rainbows on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f83r.
These two pages face each other, but they are part of two different bifolios.
If it can be agreed that these illustrations are related, then this puts a constraint on the possible re-orderings of the bifollios in quire 13.
Now I can see no reason why the illustration on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is anything else than a tube passing liquid between two pools.
There are openings on both sides, and the liquid is blue (one of two colours used for 'water' in Q13).
Now let's go back to f82v. There do not appear to be any openings, but there clearly is something like liquid (or vapour) coming in or going out both ends of both 'rainbows'. In this case, there are two colours: blue and green, which are the two colours used for 'water' in Q13.
I just see tubes and no rainbows.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - DONJCH - 23-12-2020
Yes, many of the problems are resolved if these are tubes rather than rainbows, as others have suggested recently too.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - Linda - 23-12-2020
I agree with that assessment that these objects are not rainbows, but tubes. The only reason they resemble rainbows is the curved shape, and the juxtaposition of some colours. This may have been purposeful, though.
These illustrations are related somewhat, in my opinion, but this puts no constraint on the ordering. Like-shaped things do not have to be shown together, if they are like shaped alike because they are the same thing, then all that matters is the identification of those things, they can still be different examples of the things they are, if they are the same in some way.
The tubes in the other pages of quire 13 are not mistaken for rainbows whether curved or straight, due to the lack of colour, or different gradiation thereof, or that extra tubes are involved, like in the example of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the top and middle. But they are also tubes. And although the colour is not clean blue or green, it is still a colour of water, muddy water that gets muddier as you go. So i think they are conveyors of water.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - R. Sale - 23-12-2020
That's the great thing about ambiguity; you see what you want to see. It works every time. And make no mistake about it, the VMs is ambiguous - intentionally ambiguous.
So, are the two illustrations related? If both are pipes or rainbows, then perhaps, <All rainbows are rainbows.>, but if they differ, what is the relationship?
The problem is one of interpretation. If they are pipes, they are pipes. So what? Turn the page.
However, if they rainbows, then what? Turn the page, just the same?
Let's look at how rainbows are represented in medieval art, with consideration of the VMs C-14 results. Christine de Pizan's works show rainbows as the seats / thrones for a panoply of classical gods and goddesses. And as far as rainbow colors, these are rather gray. Christian art used a double rainbow as a throne and footstool for Christ. Is the VMs "double rainbow" a representation of such a seat? Hard to say - there is nobody sitting there.
As VMs investigations have accumulated in recent years, various ones have shown connections to Paris and to the Duchy of Burgundy. Primary among these has been the comparison of the 'critter' on VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to the fleece of the Golden Fleece and the premier order of knighthood for the Valois Duchy of Burgundy starting in 1430. A second representation of a fleece has also been proposed for one of the companion creatures of the 'mermaid' of VMs f79v. And this is no ordinary mermaid. This is Melusine of Luxembourg. Not the dragon Melusine of Lusignan, but the most mermaid-like Melusine of Luxembourg, and the Melusine for Bonne of Luxembourg, mother of the Valois generations - specifically Jean, Duke of Berry, whose library is much investigated, and Philip the Good, third Valois duke of Burgundy, who instituted the Order of the Golden Fleece. And clearly this is no ordinary mermaid; *she has knees.*
So what does this have to do with the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. illustrations? Here is where history intervenes with the events involving La Sainte Hostie de Dijon in 1434. Dijon, of course, still being the principle residence of the Dukes of Burgundy. And the image imprinted on the Host shows Christ seated on a rainbow.
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So while a modern investigator may see pipes, I think we have to ask whether a person who was familiar with events, traditional rainbow depictions, and potentially contemporary with C-14 results might interpret the throne by itself as a significant marker, along with the other information (Golden Fleece etc.), as disguised clues from a culture that was dominant in Northern Europe through the early and mid 1400s. Having research results from various independent sources that indicate a mutually compatible result suggests an area deserving of further investigation.
Or.., they're just pipes. Turn the page. Because that is what a person, intent on deception, would want you to do. And surely, without the relevant details of history, that is no problem.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - Koen G - 23-12-2020
But the items on f82v and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are distinct, right? One certainly looks more tube-like than the others. So we know that the VM distinguishes between tube and not-tube.
And what about the one with red and yellow on top of the page? It comes from water and sits in the clouds...
Calling it a continuum between tube-like and rainbow-like sounds fine, but to categorically deny rainbows probably misses some of the meaning.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - Searcher - 23-12-2020
(23-12-2020, 09:14 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But the items on f82v and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are distinct, right? One certainly looks more tube-like than the others. So we know that the VM distinguishes between tube and not-tube.But from the other side, look at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in her right hand. I can't judge whether she receives them or, vice versa, brings into the rainbow-tube, but I think it is connected, as that rainbow is likely red, and the blue clouds above it looks identical as that cloudy thing in the right hand of the nymph. I suppose that the light yellow means transparent color, for example, used to depict glass.
And what about the one with red and yellow on top of the page? It comes from water and sits in the clouds...
RE: f82v: those rainbows - Searcher - 23-12-2020
As for the bottom example of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , also pay attention that the nymph to the right holds a tube with the two outlets at the top, the color of its content is mixed blue and green. And now look look at the two rainbow to the left from that nymph, they contain blue and green, not mixed, but separated. Yes, the outlets are not visualised here, but something clearly flows from them. I won't be surprised if these two rainbows are the continuation of the top of the tube to the right.
P.S. Besides, the right nymph stands in the barrel with blue water, but the nymph to the very left stands in the barrel with green water. Even the colors of, let's say, their ribbons in the hair repeat the color of the liquid in the barrels.
RE: f82v: those rainbows - Searcher - 23-12-2020
It is interesting, can we define the sequens of the pages by the change of colors in the rainbows-tubes?