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+--- Thread: Cribs in the Voynich MS (/thread-3991.html)
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - Aga Tentakulus - 13-05-2023
Not this picture, but similar and in color.
The seven sisters.
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RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - Aga Tentakulus - 13-05-2023
I think it was these. But I am no longer sure. There are just too many.
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RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - R. Sale - 13-05-2023
An investigation that begins with a proposed identification, that can identify various historical elements and realities is always of some benefit. However, the connection with the VMs is often seen as circumstantial or ambiguous or both, because of the element only stands by itself. The connection is being questioned and it has no secondary support coming from within the VMs. While such investigations are interesting and may be valuable later, they can only go so far, if they cannot establish further connections with the VMs.
The second connection is achieved through pairing. The ideological basis is established in the laws of Deuteronomy. Two witnesses are required. The second witness is the second connection. So, even if the interpretation of the original connection may seem circumstantial or ambiguous, the fact that there is an actual pairing of elements in the VMs illustrations requires a whole recalculation of what's happening with the VMs, based on the possibility that the pairing in those illustrations is intentional and has a purpose.
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - ReneZ - 14-05-2023
It is one thing to have a list of cribs (or potential cribs), with a wide range of quality.
It is quite another thing what one does with it.
Obviously, from the earliest days onward, they would be used to find a combination of
- language
- character substitution
that converted these cribs into something meaningful.
This has led to zero success, and there does not seem to be any reason to expect that this will be different in similar present and future attempts.
It requires something more than just character substitution, and this adds to the already high level of freedom that Koen indicated in one of the last posts.
What one can do already is to use these cribs to test solutions.
What, in the context of any given solution, is the PT version of these cribs?
This has never been done to my best knowledge, and the reason is in most cases, that the 'solution method' is only understood by the person proposing this solution, and this person (or small group) is also the only one who can apply the method. The usual explanation is that the translation is complicated.
We just don't even get to the point of testing the solution using the cribs.
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - MarcoP - 14-05-2023
(13-05-2023, 12:52 AM)zobowiazanie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If I had to pick the best candidate for a crib in the VMS, it would be the label doary next to the cluster of seven stars on f68r3, which just screams Pleiades (also known as the Seven Sisters) to me.
Also, I've seen a theory that proposes this diagram depicts a solar eclipse that happened in the 1400s, and that the curved line represents "the dragon/serpent of the eclipse", based on a painting from an old Indian temple. In case it's correct, the label oalcheol under the line could be a crib for the dragon.
(13-05-2023, 09:43 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We don't really need to go to India to see a dragon messing with seven stars: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
When I posted the Indian painting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in 2017, I listed these points as possibly interesting parallels:
Quote:
- the diagram is divided into regular radial sectors;
- the division in four equal quarters is particularly evident;
- the Moon appears at the center of the diagram;
- an S-shaped curved line appears in the top-left quadrant;
- the curved line reaches the moon at the center of the diagram;
- the other extremity of the line, towards the outer circumference, is linked with several celestial objects (in the case of the Madurai painting, the exact number is uncertain, but they could be seven in both illustrations).
In my post, I also added a longer list of significant differences between the two diagrams.
This parallel really contradicts the idea that the seven stars are the Pleiades; it could possibly rather suggests that they are the seven planets or maybe Ursa Major. Anyway, I still believe that the interesting side of this diagram is not so much "a dragon with seven stars", but the position of the snake inside a circular astronomical diagram divided into four equal sectors.
Currently, I think that series of potential cribs that include a number of labels in a fixed order are potentially much more useful. The best ones possibly are those mentioned by Rene at the start of this thread: the mansions of the moon in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and (even better in my opinion) the names of the zodiac signs in f67r2. The seven planets in f67r2 are also good candidates, but here the order is not fixed. In the past years, I spent quite some time trying to match the supposed zodiac signs to lists of zodiac names in various languages, but this of course did not lead anywhere. This task is particularly manageable, since you only have 12 possible positions, two directions (clockwise, counterclockwise) and a limited number of language families (since the name of the signs in Latin or Slavic languages etc. tend to be similar). Considering 10 language families, there only are 12*2*10=240 combinations.
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - ThomasCoon - 05-06-2023
(14-05-2023, 07:38 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Currently, I think that series of potential cribs that include a number of labels in a fixed order are potentially much more useful. The best ones possibly are those mentioned by Rene at the start of this thread: the mansions of the moon in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and (even better in my opinion) the names of the zodiac signs in f67r2. The seven planets in f67r2 are also good candidates
If anyone would like to try it, here are the seven "planets" in Voynichese and English, Latin, and modern German:
Voynichese:
dylchsody
okal
okain am
opcholdy
dfar oeoldan
ytoaiin
yfain
English:
sun
moon
Mercury
Venus
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn
Latin:
sol
luna
mercurius
venus
mars
iuppiter
saturnus
Modern German:
Sonne (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Sünn, Sunn, Zon, etc.)
Mond (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Maan, Maand, Moanne etc.)
Merkur
Venus
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn
And here are potentially the Zodiac signs in Voynichese and English, Latin, and (modern) German:
Voynichese:
okadar
qotear
dchodar
ysaldal
ytodal
tol daiin
otardy
chodalg
ytchodyy / ytchodly
ocThys
ytokar
otolor
Latin/English:
Aries (Ram)
Taurus (Bull)
Gemini (Twins)
Cancer (Crab)
Leo (Lion)
Virgo (Maiden)
Libra (Scale)
Scorpio (Scorpion)
Sagittarius (Archer)
Capricorn (Goat)
Aquarius (Water-bearer)
Pisces (Fish)
Modern German:
Widder
Stier
Zwillinge
Krebs
Löwe
Jungfrau
Waage
Skorpion
Schütze
Steinbock
Wassermann
Fische
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - Koen G - 05-06-2023
(07-05-2023, 11:01 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The second one is one I proposed myself some two decades ago by now.
f67r2 shows a circle split into twelve segments. There is a good chance that these represent the twelve zodiac signs.
The second ring from the outside has short pieces of text covering 3-4 lines each.
In seven of 12 segments there is one word standing apart a bit.
There is a good chance that these are the seven planets ruling this zodiac sign.
I somehow missed this part so far, this is very interesting indeed. The 7 words do stand out. But aren't all signs supposed to be ruled by a planet? Why single out 7? If 5 of the labels were repeated, this would absolutely be a clear case.
Have you looked for parallels?
Edit: also, looking at other occurrences of these labels, it appears that the majority of them are unique, which is at the very least unexpected.
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - MarcoP - 05-06-2023
Hi Koen, the most common layout would be an outer zodiac circle and seven concentric inner circles one for each planet.
In f67r2, there are two candidate sets of labels for the seven planets.
In my opinion, the most promising one is what was listed by Thomas above (marked in blue). This is compatible with a horoscope, where each planet appears in a zodiac sign. Medieval astrological charts were typically drawn as squared diagrams, but the square represented the circle of the zodiac.
The inner circle (yellow) could also be made of seven labels, though this is somehow a stretch, since the labels could also be read as being 8 and the large star at the centre has 8 points. A (messy) wind rose could maybe be more likely? Also, the seven planets appearing in a single circle inside the zodiac is an unusual arrangement.
In Thompson 31, they are arranged in a single circle, but without the zodiac:
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These are other vaguely comparable images, some are later than the VMS and none is totally satisfying.
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RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - Yammon - 16-06-2023
I'm surprised no one's brought up this old post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. It's got a bit of what's been discussed here, including the Taurus/Pleiades label.
RE: Cribs in the Voynich MS - Juan_Sali - 19-09-2023
(05-06-2023, 02:44 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.dylchsodyYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has several typos, better check with a higher resolution: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
okal
okain am
opcholdy
dfar oeoldan
ytoaiin
yfain
There is at least a typo, dfar oeoldan is ofar oeoldan,
The final EVA-m is more similat to the latin d than to the latin m. I dont know wich EVA sign to use for it.