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+--- Thread: Water, earth and air (/thread-2185.html)
RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 12-08-2026
While most examples in heraldry use the basic form of a nebuly line...
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that is not always the case.
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RE: Water, earth and air - Jorge_Stolfi - 13-08-2026
(12-08-2026, 11:44 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm a little confused with the different terminology being thrown around here
Again, the confusion is only that there is a heraldry element called "nebuly" that is a simple line with "bulbous" undulations and apparently referred to clouds, without any cosmic connections. It seems to be totally unrelated to the "cloud-band" ("wolkenband") we are discussing and which is used in your examples.
Quote:but these "undulations" patterns [are indeed]used to depict - I think - a seperation between the earth and other planes of existence (heaven, the sky etc).
Yes, the "cloud-band" seems to be a conventional graphical device used specifically for that purpose. In the same class as the halos used to identify saints, or the pointy things used to represent stars, or the disk with fiery frame representing the the sun.
More precisely, the cloud-band seems to represent the "vault of the sky" -- that, in medieval cosmology, lies above the stars and planets, and holds up the vast ocean of the "waters above".
Quote:examples of a non-frilly line ... There is an example of this in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Here is saturn: So I think it is possible that the pattern does not always require the exact frilly pattern, it just matters that the reader understands that the pattern represents a cosmic boundary of sorts.
Good point. Perhaps the inspiration of the VMS artist was a diagram with a non-frilled but still 3D cloud-band, like that in this example.
Quote:However, just after the section on 53v (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) a frilly undulation-like pattern is used to depict the 10th heaven.
Interesting. I suppose that was part of the standard "cosmology" of the times. (IIRC, the vision of Paradise in the Divina Commedia had several levels. I am not sure because I read only the Hell part -- the other two were too boring...)
Quote:There is also use of frilly wolkenbands for what seem to be actual clouds, immediately after a non frilly pattern used as a boundary, on folios 108-110. So it's clear that the meanings of each style were flexible, at least.
I think that the cloud-band in that example still represents the "vault of the sky". At that time, people did not know that rain came from water evaporated from the seas and other water bodies. In their view (based on the Bible, which in turn was based in Sumerian cosmology) the rains came from the "waters above", percolating through the "vault of the sky". The Biblical Flood, in particular, came from that source as well as from the "waters below":
Quote:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
I suppose that people knew that clouds were somehow associated with rain, but did not realize that rain came from the clouds.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Water, earth and air - Jorge_Stolfi - 13-08-2026
(12-08-2026, 12:37 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... or, as in this case, the element air.
I don't think the cloud-band represents the element "air". IIUC, the Aristotelian view of the cosmos had five spheres: Earth, Water, Air, Fire, and Aether, from the center out (from bottom up). The Aether was incorruptible and weightless and its sphere was the Heavens; it started just below the Moon and contained the stars and planets.
This cosmology was distinct from the Biblical one, that had a solid "vault of the sky" above the stars, holding up a vast ocean of the "waters above". Medieval Christian theologians turned themselves into knots in attempts to compatibilize the two views. Anyway, AFAIK the cloud-band of medieval illustrations definitely represented the Biblical "vault of the sky" (above the stars) and not the Aristotelian sphere of Air (below the sphere of Fire and the stars).
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Water, earth and air - nablator - 13-08-2026
(13-08-2026, 06:48 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(12-08-2026, 12:37 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... or, as in this case, the element air.I don't think the cloud-band represents the element "air".
This subject was discussed many times... Astrology associations signs - planets - elements are clearly represented by symbols in manuscripts as in the Saturn image posted by eggyk.
Biblical creation drawings in manuscripts also symbolize the air element with a cloudband.
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The astrological symbols for planets and elements were adopted in the 2nd half of the 15th century in (mostly printed) astronomy books.
In Sacrobosco's De Sphaera manuscripts the spheres were named but drawn without symbols but in some later printed editions the symbols are clearly drawn, for example in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Water, earth and air - eggyk - 13-08-2026
(13-08-2026, 07:52 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This subject was discussed many times... Astrology associations signs - planets - elements are clearly represented by symbols in manuscripts as in the Saturn image posted by eggyk.
Biblical creation drawings in manuscripts also symbolize the air element with a cloudband.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The astrological symbols for planets and elements were adopted late in the 15th century in printed astronomy books.
In Sacrobosco's De Sphaera manuscripts the spheres were named but drawn without symbols but in some later printed editions the symbols are clearly drawn, for example in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Just to clear up what I meant initially, I wasn't saying that the pattern always means a boundary, nor that it never means air, but I don't believe that the pattern in that saturn image represents the element of air.
As the voynich portal article says:
Voynich Portal Wrote:So this infurled style of band is frequently used to represent a division between realms (usually heaven and earth), but it can also represent “air”.
RE: Water, earth and air - nablator - 13-08-2026
(13-08-2026, 10:53 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just to clear up what I meant initially, I wasn't saying that the pattern always means a boundary, nor that it never means air, but I don't believe that the pattern in that saturn image represents the element of air.
Agreed.
In this manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. all the roundels of planets are surrounded by a cloudband, not only those ruling an air sign. So it's not the planet-sign-element association as I thought in this case. IDK.
The "planet-element association through sign" is represented in these planetary roundels from Sphaerae coelestis et planetarum (ca. 1470): logically only Mercury, Venus, and Saturn are surrounded by a cloudband pattern symbolizing Air.
Sun rules Leo (Fire) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Moon rules Cancer (Water) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Mercury rules Gemini (Air) and Virgo (Earth) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Venus rules Taurus (Earth) and Libra (Air) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Mars rules Aries (Fire) and Scorpio (Water) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Jupiter rules Sagittarius (Fire) and Pisces (Water) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Saturn rules Capricorn (Earth) and Aquarius (Air) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 13-08-2026
I have always thought that understanding this iconographic element—which recurs so frequently in manuscripts to separate the celestial from the terrestrial—is crucial for comprehending various parts of the Voynich, such as the central circle of the Rosettes. I would not call this lobed strip we are discussing a cloud band or Wolkenband, as that would be misleading. The most fully realized form of this iconographic motif is the one seen in the famous illustration of the cosmos by Oresme, which resembles that of the Rosettes.
It consists of a wavy, scallop-shaped band, in which the scallop motifs alternate in opposing directions. I believe the intention is to represent a closed sphere—hence the scallops facing both ways. This is undoubtedly how the enclosure of the universe—the outermost sphere—was depicted in the Middle Ages. Beyond it lies the realm of God.
This sphere is, therefore, the one in which the fixed stars are embedded. The fact that this same motif has been used by some illustrators to depict the sphere of air does not contradict its primary use and is compatible with it, given that those illustrators may not have been aware of its true meaning.
The lobed band seen on folio f68v3 of the Voynich manuscript is another, more simplified way of drawing the scallop-shell band, and it serves the same purpose of marking the boundary of the medieval universe.
RE: Water, earth and air - Jorge_Stolfi - 13-08-2026
(13-08-2026, 10:53 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Sacrobosco's De Sphaera manuscripts the spheres were named but drawn without symbols but in some later printed editions the symbols are clearly drawn, for example in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Voynich Portal Wrote:So this infurled style of band is frequently used to represent a division between realms (usually heaven and earth), but it can also represent “air”.
Indeed, in that Regiomontanus printed book (1488), page 19, there is an "Aristotelian" diagram of the cosmos, with Earth at the center (represented as an original complicated version of the T-O map) surrounded by the spheres of Water, Air, Fire, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Stars. (There is an outer band with the signs of the Zodiac, but it does not seem to imply an additional sphere.)
And the sphere of "Air" is indeed drawn as a wolkenband.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Water, earth and air - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-08-2026
Come on, Stolfi. Why do you comment on what others have written about the topic instead of the latest thing I published?
I assume you are looking for an open debate in search of the truth.
RE: Water, earth and air - eggyk - 14-08-2026
(14-08-2026, 08:16 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Come on, Stolfi. Why do you comment on what others have written about the topic instead of the latest thing I published?
I assume you are looking for an open debate in search of the truth.
In all fairness, everything you mentioned was broadly in line and generally in agreement with everything that was just discussed and established in the thread (from around post #65). As far as I can tell, you haven't said anything that conflicts with that.
I generally agree with your post, for what it's worth, but I don't think the notion that a celestial boundary or barrier could overlap with the idea or vibe of air / clouds / the sky is a stretch at all. Honestly, it makes total sense to me.
So it doesn't have to be one or the other. "Wolkenband" could mean both "Cloud Band" and "Celestial Boundary". Just like we say today that heaven is "in the clouds"; it's the exact same idea.