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+--- Thread: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution (/thread-569.html)
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Linda - 18-07-2016
(17-07-2016, 10:22 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've just found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it shows almost all picture, but I'm waiting for Job's reply, after all.
Only remind that in my interpretation:
qokeedy, qokedy, qokchdy - procatum, perlocutum, perlucidum (invocation, expressed, clear or pellucid), so, even, if qokeedy or qokedy are doubled, it can be the word combination procatum perlocutum (an expressed invocation); tripled - ? (for now, but, maybe, verse);
ol - os (mouth, speech, bone);
qotedy, qoteedy, qotchdy - probatum (tested, good, verified)
Just something I noticed, not sure what it means. I wrote down the pages where your vord choices occurred, then looked up which page made up the bifolio and in almost all cases they were matches of each other, ie one piece of vellum. in only three cases the other side of the bifolio does not also contain the vords, i wrote the matching pages in parentheses in those cases, but in those cases, the only vords on the page that does show one is qokedy for all three of these.
f26/f31 quire 4
33/40 quire 5
34/39 quire 5
41/48 quire 6
43/46 quire 6
50(55) quire 7
57/66 quire 8 (66 has a page of writing where it occurs)
73 quire 12, other side missing
all quire 13
quire 14 (one page without, don't know about rosettes side)
89(88) quire 15
95(94) quire 17
all quire 20
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 18-07-2016
(18-07-2016, 06:49 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(17-07-2016, 10:22 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've just found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it shows almost all picture, but I'm waiting for Job's reply, after all.
Only remind that in my interpretation:
qokeedy, qokedy, qokchdy - procatum, perlocutum, perlucidum (invocation, expressed, clear or pellucid), so, even, if qokeedy or qokedy are doubled, it can be the word combination procatum perlocutum (an expressed invocation); tripled - ? (for now, but, maybe, verse);
ol - os (mouth, speech, bone);
qotedy, qoteedy, qotchdy - probatum (tested, good, verified)
Just something I noticed, not sure what it means. I wrote down the pages where your vord choices occurred, then looked up which page made up the bifolio and in almost all cases they were matches of each other, ie one piece of vellum. in only three cases the other side of the bifolio does not also contain the vords, i wrote the matching pages in parentheses in those cases, but in those cases, the only vords on the page that does show one is qokedy for all three of these.
f26/f31 quire 4
33/40 quire 5
34/39 quire 5
41/48 quire 6
43/46 quire 6
50(55) quire 7
57/66 quire 8 (66 has a page of writing where it occurs)
73 quire 12, other side missing
all quire 13
quire 14 (one page without, don't know about rosettes side)
89(88) quire 15
95(94) quire 17
all quire 20
All these folios are considered to be in language B, besides f88 and f89. I can't say that language B is another language, it is rather another theme / section of the real text. Perhaps, the text is really written not in the present sequence.
RE: Theory and deciphering - stellar - 08-10-2016
(27-04-2016, 10:39 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I welcome everyone to read my study and deciphered text of a few VMs pages. I know it is nonstandart and doesn't correspond to usual deciphering methods and rules, but I hope you won't waste your time. Please, if you read it, read to the end. Some questions of my approach is clarified closer to the second part or to the end of this work.
David shared links to my PDF file, but, as I corrected some mistakes, I've updated it and putted it here.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Searcher please decode the Zodiac labels of folio 67r2. I believe that will verify your findings. Why because it has to be in order counter clockwise and this will restrict you to following rules we can all agree upon. If you can do this in Latin than you will make a great deal of sense to us all and perhaps win me over.
RE: Theory and deciphering - Searcher - 08-10-2016
(08-10-2016, 05:51 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher please decode the Zodiac labels of folio 67r2. I believe that will verify your findings. Why because it has to be in order counter clockwise and this will restrict you to following rules we can all agree upon. If you can do this in Latin than you will make a great deal of sense to us all and perhaps win me over.
Hi, Tom!
I'll try, but I don't promise a successful result as this part is quite problematic for me
I will write about the attemption later.
RE: Theory and deciphering - stellar - 09-10-2016
(08-10-2016, 08:40 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(08-10-2016, 05:51 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher please decode the Zodiac labels of folio 67r2. I believe that will verify your findings. Why because it has to be in order counter clockwise and this will restrict you to following rules we can all agree upon. If you can do this in Latin than you will make a great deal of sense to us all and perhaps win me over.
Hi, Tom!
I'll try, but I don't promise a successful result as this part is quite problematic for me
I know this will be extremely tuff and you may want to search for very old latin labels for the Zodiac and Good luck
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 05-01-2017
Stellar wrote:
Quote:Searcher have you found a way using Latin to find the Zodiac words yet from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?
Stellar and those who interested!
I've finally made my interpretation of this page, still without the text in the external circle and without the notes in the bottom of the page. I need more time to finish all this.
My interpretation is not perfectly edited, it still should be edited yet to be grammatically correct.
So, I interpreted the text in the sections and two rows of the text in the center. The first point (sector) was chosen randomly.
1. odaiin o toes o ekain y otchey so-raiir dy qotchey daiin dal
1. Interdatum in pluviis (inpluviis, in menaeis) in egreditum ad obvium est (si)-ne You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. dum nimium (opium) traditum drs (diverse)
2. ydchos ain ar amy chocphy saral r-ain am ar okal
2. continuis reditum (rotatum) ratione rectum (rectaque) aliubique ferrarius (ferire/ferre/serare-ros/ras) __r_tatum (per-reditum?) recte/recta ratione ingruus (nigrius)
3. oporchy s-al-s-ain s odar opor ar ydam
3. Ingenerium est-ros-est reditum (rotatum) est interior labor ratione contracte
4. yteoor yto ykor okeo r aii okain rm
4. combinantur (comminantur, commanentur) campo congentur locale (oculo, licio) ter (per?) rotatum (rotatibus) recte You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. recte?
5. ytody s-aiin ochol olol ofchol dy
5. Commotum (commodum, commentum) est rotatum luens (novos, nuens) osos? oculus deum
6. dorar odar air ala/y-iin dokan oear odal ofar o-eoldan
6. torretur interior (intrare, interire) rotator (rotatione, reditione, redire) rasere/rosere datum (tutum) denigratum inurere interius
operitur (operatur) in-il[l]ustratum
7. chol giin okol ytor d aiin or ytoaiin
7. unius __t/datum legens (ingens, logos, locos) complere de (et) reditibus (rotatibus, rotatum, reditum) orae ([h]orae) comportatum
8. otoldos/r o-ctholy sor chedaiin dy yteos oiin og
8. opositore (inpositore, in positore, in posit[io]nis) in emansi (emensu) fletur (soter, finitor) veteraturum dum communis notatum (natatum, litatum letatum) ______
9. yto-e-op-chey chekody sosho chos ockhy daiin aiin os ysy*
9. Campo eliquium augendum (jacendum) fluvio uniis/aliis in-aqueum traditum reditum (rotatum) nisi consi/e[..]
10. ofydy sheody aiin ycheody es odaiin yekees or-al-y yfain
10. Opertum (obiratum, obviatum? ) eventum rotatum (reditum, rotatibus) conventum eis (his, vis) interitibus (interdatum) canicies (conjugiis, conicies) or-arius-cum/ad? compertatum (comperatibus?)
11. todaiin dain dy os-choer aiin choeeo r al do dain
11. Moderaturum (moderatorem) traditum dum (tum, tam, deum) insinuatur rotatum (reditum) alveo (alvo) ter (per?) rs (ros? rasa?) deo? traditum?...
12. ofodchol s ain aldy soeey doiin oldy dol chrody
12. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. est reditum (rotatum) rosidum flavum (fluv[i]um?) tenturum (dotatum, tentatum, totarum) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (insitum) tenus (dense) arendum (urendum)
Cental circle 1.
okodar qotoear dchodar y saldal ytodal tol daiin otar-dy chodal. ytchodly octhys ytokar otolor
Cental circle 1.
Includerere (lignaterra?) inplueretur, tunderetur ad You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. commoturos plus (pos) traditum operitur (operatur, numeratur, opertione, operatione) dum (tum, tam) alterios__ __________ in-aquari[i]s compliceretur (complaceretur) inmensiore (inpensore, in-mensore, in pensore)
Cental circle 2.
s air soeor cpheey ot-o-dar oefchod s acthhy o-s-ar oran
Cental circle 2.
Est (si) reditione (reditur, rotatur) fluentur (fluor) aqueum (aquaque) oblit[t]eratione (oblit[t]erare/retur, ob-interiora) inigant si (est) ripaeum in-fe-retur (in-se-rere, insertione) in-torridum (interritum, inter-rotam)
There are some changes and additions in the code:
p - c, g, q
f - p, m, b
s - s, f
q (separate) - cum + next ablative; ad + next accusative
m - possibly, ct[e]
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - stellar - 05-01-2017
Searcher,
I'm no Latin expert by a long shot and sorry this format, I'm highly confused of your interpretation. Also, why have you have labeled the Zodiac in a clockwise fashion? Hopefully not the Zodiac representations as-well! Did you find Aries and the other 12 signs? I will be amazed if Thomas Coon and JKP concurs that you have found Latin Zodiac Labels for the 12 signs.
Sorry if I did not comprehend this if I misinterpreted what you have written.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 06-01-2017
(05-01-2017, 11:57 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher,
I'm no Latin expert by a long shot and sorry this format, I'm highly confused of your interpretation. Also, why have you have labeled the Zodiac in a clockwise fashion? Hopefully not the Zodiac representations as-well! Did you find Aries and the other 12 signs? I will be amazed if Thomas Coon and JKP concurs that you have found Latin Zodiac Labels for the 12 signs.
Sorry if I did not comprehend this if I misinterpreted what you have written.
Stellar, as I wrote, I chose the start point for deciphering randomly, then I came in usual way for us - clockwise, although I do mostly higgledy-piggledy
I don't know, which the first sector is, and which direction of those sectors is. As you see, there is no Zodiac names in my deciphering, unluckily or not, I just use my method of deciphering, the same in all parts of the text. I never know, what I will get and what I will read.I still haven't decided as for some characters. Obviously, I need a systematic approach: to find all words with that certain character and to check all combinations for every word.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 07-01-2017
Hello all!
First of all, I need to remark my mistake:
q (separate) - cum + next ablative; ad + next accusative
Must be y (separate) - cum + next ablative; ad + next accusative
In addition, I consider q to be an empty glyph for now.
This time I've tried to decipher the text in the circle of the diagram on the f68r3.
Text along the circle:
okosy okchy okol choekey o-kchoeeey ol ykain otair or orol o rkeeey o-lkeeoly ykeeol
Ingenuisque, inquam, logos eliciam (inaequem?) in-canevam os concreditum opertare inter laternas in requiem You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. calcans.
(caneva = camera)
(inscansum = inscensum)
Variants of interpretation for every word:
okosy – ingenuisque, ingeniisque, lignis
okchy – inquam, liquem, lacuum, licium, lucium, logium, nocuum
okol – logos, locos, ingens, lugens, legens
choekey – eliciam, aliquem, elegiam, eliquem, inaequam?
o-kchoeeey – in-canevam, oculeum?, legalium?, incilium?, incaleam?
ol – os, nos
ykain – concreditum, concertatum
otair – opertare, opertura, operatura, nomeratura
or – inter, notor, later, nator, nitor
orol – laternas, internus
o – in, ne
rkeeey – requiem, regium
o-lkeeoly – inscansum, in scansum, in seculosum
ykeeol – calcans, calculus, calcinus
Text in the circle:
otodol – You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (=omnipotens, =omnitenens)
opchol dg – oculus d* (oculus Dei?, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), locans d*, legans d*, incilius d*
soar ykeol *arol (darol?) daly r/s olaiin ckhhy o lekeey dy ykeol cth eepchy dar
1. Flaretur (flu[e]retur?) calculus terrenus trusum per? inserturum aqueum in saxeum dum calculus ubi aquam terere
2. Flaretur calcans terrenus trusum per/est inserturum aqueum in saxeum (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) dum calcans ubi aquam terere
Variants of interpretation:
soar – flaretur, fleretur, seneretur, floritur, foretur, feliretur, feneretur, flu[e]retur?
ykeol – calculus, calcans, calculose
*arol (darol?) - terrenus
daly – trusum, d[ive]rsum?
r/s – ter, per? (still unchecked) ? / est, si
olaiin - inserturum, insertatum
ckhhy - aqueum
o – in, ne
lekeey – saxeum? (if k is also "x"), sic[c]eum, sac[c]eum
dy – dum, tum, tam, Deum (possibly)
cth - ubi, ibi, ama, emi, abi
eepchy – aquam, acium, axium?
dar – terere, terra
Now I have a thought that the ending iin could also substitute the combination –tionem, but it must be checked.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 12-11-2017
Hi!
I was silent quite a long time concerning my theory and my attempts of deciphering, but I just had a lack of time and, mostly, spent my free time experimenting exactly with decipherment. The main aim was minimizing of letter values for the certain Voynich characters. In general, I’ve made some changes, which must reduce the quantity of interpretations for every word, but I still can’t achieve the result: one character – one value.
While I keep experimenting with changing of values and am going to do this at a later date, I want to share my result right now. Maybe, the number of new Latin theories provoke me, or, perhaps - JKP, who mentioned my work in the friendly tone (thank you, JKP – I keep rationalize my theory, as well, find explanations for some Voynich phenomenons), anyway, I want you to see and read my interpretation of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (as usual, it was the accident choice).
At first, I need to make some points:
1) due to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I think q is a null character, as well, during my studying I came to conclusion that y inside of a word is just a null character;
2) my earlier interpretation of iin (-torum, -turum, etc.) likely was wrong as it adds ends with m, together with y, which is –um/-am/-em in my interpretation, they make up too big percentage of the letter m in the end of a word. I can’t say that it is correct now, but it looks nicer, at least, statistically;
3) I can’t change the percentage of y, I only suppose that some of them represent the conjunction –que, but they are not too much;
4) as earlier, this deciphering is not strict and not exact, words still can be interpreted in a few variants (not all of them), therefore, of course, it is in some measure subjective. I can’t explain it for sure, only a couple suppositions: there was a special dictionary, based on the mentioned word construction, therefore every Voynich word stands for a separate certain word in Latin language (for example, tchor is always minor and nothing else, but munera may be teor, etc.);
5) spaces are often unclear, so there is still a problem with identifying of a separate word and a space itself;
6) I tried to be grammatically correct as much as I can, so I composed sentences, choose needed words in accordance with the main rules and context. As usual, my interpreted text doesn’t relate to the images at all, but I hope, it will be interesting or, at least, amusing.
Every line of the text is represented in four variants:
1. Voynich version in EVA font.
2. Latin interpretation.
3. English translation.
4. Russian translation.
Either, English and Russian versions are rough due to my level of knowledge of Latin, but I tried to keep words of a line in the same line and in the most resembling sequence as much as it is possible in these languages.
f3v.
koaiin cphor qotoy sha ckhol ykoaiin s oly
cordis vigor omnem vero agens concordis est, osque
The energy of heart that truly moves everything is harmonious, so I
Энергия сердца, поистине все движущая - гармонична, а потому речь
daiidy qoteeol okchor okor olytol dol dar
traductum Numinis loquor, lagor osumens? tenus teretur
speak the passed speech of consent/will, until the weakening ailment terminates.
Божьей воли/согласия переданную произношу, пока недуг истощающий не прекратится
oko-m cho l shol seees chom cheeykam okai
negotio/logo-Dio, eo se venis suis initio aegrotio nigrata/lacerata
hardly/with this word of God, until an darkening/agonizing illness with itself and its properties /veins
С трудом/Cловом Божим тем, до тех пор, пока своими жилами/свойствами изначально болезнь тяжкая/погруженная во тьму
qodar ees eey kcheol okal do r chear een
nutritur, has jam caelis nigris do pro aurora-viva/viae?,
is healed/nourished?, now/at once with the dark heavens, I give them for shining aurora?
исцеляется/питается?. теперь/тотчас небесами черными отдаю их перед горящей утренней зарей?
ychear o-tchal chor eear ckhy
convertor in-paris?/in puris? alere ardore aquam,
I turn in equal/equally to impregnate water with the heat,
обращаю[сь?] наравне? насытить жаром воду,
or cheor kor chodaly chom
[et] ore valere cor intrusum initio.
a heart placed inside at the beginning to be strong with the speech.
чтобы с помощью речи сердце/душа помещенное внутрь от природы оздоровилось.
tchor otcham chor cfham* s
minor obiratio aliter aegrotio est,
The least/Lesser anger, otherwise, is an illness
Меньшая злоба, в противном случае - это болезнь.
ykchy kchom chor chekeol oka
concium, cantio aliter/alior[sum] vacans, niger
a sermon/a relation, a song, in other words/otherwise, [in?] useless [and] terrible (dark)
проповедь, песнь, иначе, [в?] бесполезное (и) темное
ytcheear okeol cthodoaly cho r cthy
cambiaretur oculis. ****dorsum? (abeo-deorsum?) eo per humum
could be changed. By eyes I percolate-down, go through the earth
превратилась бы. Для глаз/Глазами проникаю-вниз, иду сквозь землю
o-chos daiin qokshol daiim chol okary
in-aliis tratis loquelis trajicio? ens nigrorum (lacerorum)
in another flows, by speeches, I redirect the essence of darkness???
в иных потоках речами я перенаправляю сущность мрачностей?
sho shockho ckhy tchor chodaiin chom
velo valvicula aquam munire (minare), alteratis?, initio
I close the water with the gate to lead/strenthen by changes, by origin.
закрываю/обвиваю оболочкой/воротами воду, чтобы вести/укрепить изменениями, зарождением.
o sh chodair ytchy tchor kcham s
In ea? alteratura cambium minor curatio est.
In that changing [thing?] the exchange/tranformatio is the least concern.
В тех изменяющих изменение/обмен – это меньшая забота.
shar shkaiin qokchy yty cthal chky
Orare aegrotis logium (nocuum, licium, nequam, liquum), commum (campam, campum, culpam) amaris agam.
I will tend to hand the word of God/prophecy for sick, lamentation - for sorrowful.
Я буду стремиться/Я постараюсь донести больным слово Божье/пророчество, скорбящим – песнь плача.
dain sheam ykeam
tratae/tritae: avertio [et] concuratio.
persistent: rejectio [&] concern.
непрерывные: отвержение и забота
….
cfham* - this word contains f with a little second loop, therefore I'm not sure whether it is f or p, in the first case it can be read as "apertio" or "vibratio".
lagor – a version of languor
osumens – obsumens
logo Dio – logo Dei or logo divo
aegrotio – aegrotatio, aegror (v.l.)
concium, concio – concilium, contio ( sermon)
tritus – in some cases means vetustus, senex, antiques
tratus – tractus, trattus (It.)
valvicula – foris, operimentum, custos (M. Lat.)
logiam (logia or logium, logion) – oraculum: “divine revelation”, “logos Dei” (Septuagint), (literally, from ancient Greek verb legein "to speak")
commum (commus) – lamentatio, planctus (from Greek kommos “beating”)
avertio – a version of aversio
concuratio – curatio
My updated list of the Voynich characters with their meanings
ch, c, h, e (ee, eee, eeee) – all vowels, besides "o", also "v" (as a vowel as a consonant): a, e, i, j, v
sh – a combination of two vowels and combinations with "v": ae, av, ai, ea, ee, ei, ev, va, ve, vi, vu etc.
d – t(e), d(e)
y – prefix: com-, cam-, cum-, con-, col-; ending: -um, -am, -em, -im; conjunction: -que (sometimes); separately - cum, possibly, ad (with accusative); inside of the word – null character
l – s; separately: se
s – at the beginning and inside of a word: f, s; ending: -is, -es, -as; separately: est
a – r(*)
o – o, n(*), l(*)
r – tur, tor[e], dor[e], ter, tione
R – r(*), sometimes - or, ar ; separately: pro (with ablative), per (with accusative)
t, f – m(e), p(e), pp, b(e)
k, p – c(e), g(e), q
cth, cfh – ligatures: (*)m(*), (**)m, (*)p(*), (*)b(*) etc.
ckh, cph – ligatures: (*)c(*), (**)c, (*)g(*), (*)qu etc.
m – -tio, -dio
iin - -tis, -dis, -tus, -dus
in - -ta[e]?
i – ti, di, tu, du, ta, da
ii – tic, dic, tuc, duc (previously)
n - ?
g - ?
q – null character