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+--- Thread: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations (/thread-4008.html)
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - nablator - 13-06-2023
I don't remember seeing Latin writing, with all macrons attached, dated from the 14th century. Those u n r s that make Voynichese look like abbreviated Latin: without them the similarity could not even be superficial.
Were there any? The oldest that I can find -quickly- is dated 1412. I'll keep looking.
About the theory:
Why would n never occur at the start of a word?
What would be the "concatenation of abbreviations" for this invenies: nn ?
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Helmut Winkler - 13-06-2023
(13-06-2023, 09:23 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These Konzeptschriften (translation=?), could they have been edited in there? The name of one of the editors matches the blog comment poster's name, and Urban V is the 6th Avignon pope.
ACTA Pataviensia Austriaca Vatikanische Akten Zur Geschichte Des Bistums Passau Und Der Herzoge Von Osterreich (1342-1378). Urban V. (1362-1370) - Publikationen Des Osterreichischen Kulturinstitutes in ROM
Paperback (31 Dec 1996) | Latin
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There are more. For example for the last Avignon pope Gregory XI:
Acta Pataviensia Austriaca: Vatikanische Akten zur Geschichte des Bistums Passau und der Herzöge von Österreich (1342-1378): Band IV: Gregor XI. (1370-1378)
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Someone who has access to JSTOR could easily download the PDFs and search them for any reference to "Konzeptschriften"...
Konzeptschriften are drafts and you should simply have asked me for he Acta
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Helmut Winkler - 13-06-2023
(13-06-2023, 10:11 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't remember seeing Latin writing, with all macrons attached, dated from the 14th century. Those u n r s that make Voynichese look like abbreviated Latin: without them the similarity could not even be superficial.
Were there any? The oldest that I can find -quickly- is dated 1412. I'll keep looking.
I don't really understand what you are talkingm about and you should readmy firs post
About the theory:
Why would n never occur at the start of a word?
Beause it is a typicalending, row of minims and a flourish
What would be the "concatenation of abbreviations" for this invenies: nn ?
There would b e none at all,therw would be a simple i for invenies -and please don't throe around undoumented snippets
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Mark Knowles - 14-06-2023
(13-06-2023, 09:30 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-06-2023, 09:08 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He says that there are "many" documents which are similar, so you should not have so much difficulty locating at least some of these documents. Is the person who wrote this still alive? Are you happy to give out their name? He should at least remember where to find the 14th century documents of the Avignon chancellery.
I don't think the person oncerned is really interested in getting mixed up in V. research
What makes you sure that the 14th century documents of the Avignon Chancellery that your friend is referring to are written in shorthand?
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Helmut Winkler - 14-06-2023
(14-06-2023, 10:14 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-06-2023, 09:30 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-06-2023, 09:08 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He says that there are "many" documents which are similar, so you should not have so much difficulty locating at least some of these documents. Is the person who wrote this still alive? Are you happy to give out their name? He should at least remember where to find the 14th century documents of the Avignon chancellery.
I don't think the person oncerned is really interested in getting mixed up in V. research
What makes you sure that the 14th century documents of the Avignon Chancellery that your friend is referring to are written in shorthand?
The description I got and what I know of how the Papal chancerx conducted its business
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Mark Knowles - 14-06-2023
Although I don't think it is really relevant to the Voynich manuscript I appreciate you mentioning the Avignon papal records as I came across the following:
"The political and administrative correspondence of the Avignon popes, 1305-1378" by Patrick Zutshi
This article refers to quite a few enciphered letters in this collection. Putting my other hat on, as someone interested in 14th and 15th ciphers then these are definitely of interest as there are few ciphers surviving from the 14th century. I think they would most probably be too early to be connected to the Voynich manuscript, but still of interest otherwise.
Helmut: That is one reason why I do wonder if the documents that you are looking for are short-hand or enciphered or something else.
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - nablator - 14-06-2023
(13-06-2023, 10:11 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The oldest that I can find -quickly- is dated 1412. I'll keep looking.About the connected final macrons, I found some in 1350s-1360s documentary hands.
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Helmut Winkler - 14-06-2023
(14-06-2023, 03:55 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Although I don't think it is really relevant to the Voynich manuscript I appreciate you mentioning the Avignon papal records as I came across the following:
"The political and administrative correspondence of the Avignon popes, 1305-1378" by Patrick Zutshi
This article refers to quite a few enciphered letters in this collection. Putting my other hat on, as someone interested in 14th and 15th ciphers then these are definitely of interest as there are few ciphers surviving from the 14th century. I think they would most probably be too early to be connected to the Voynich manuscript, but still of interest otherwise.
Helmut: That is one reason why I do wonder if the documents that you are looking for are short-hand or enciphered or something else.
If you take into account the 'Geschäftsgang' 'course of business' of the chancery, you can be sure it is aa shorthand
RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Juan_Sali - 18-01-2024
A couple books in the style of Capelli:
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RE: The Voynich-Ms as a concatenation of abbreviations - Helmut Winkler - 19-01-2024
Thank you.
The ancient publications about Latin abbr. are comprehensivly collected in C.'s Bibliografia, which like most of his work no one ever reads. Nearly everything is digitized and online