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+--- Thread: Water, earth and air (/thread-2185.html)
RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 15-03-2026
Maps and diagrams provide different types of information as shown above. Generally, T-O maps are geographic showing three continents. On the other hand, *inverted* T-O maps are elemental, representing water, earth, and air, as in the examples from BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334. Since the VMs representation is *inverted* an elemental interpretation may be more probable.
Nebuly lines as cosmic boundaries start to appear around 1300, and they are on full display in Christine de Pizan's Book of the Queen.
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Nebuly lines occur in early heraldry, but they are uncommon. Insignia in early armorial rolls were pictorial. Linguistic descriptions in the form of blazons don't exist till later. Dictionaries don't exist early either re: VMs C-14.
German heraldry used the term 'gewolkt' from 'die Wolke' also meaning cloud. Form and definition were well established before the 15th c.
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RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 11-08-2026
Curious about the VMs cosmos? The comparison is based on structure: the inverted T/O Earth, the absence of planets or planetary spheres, the cosmic boundary with 43 nebulations. See Post #3 of this thread.
The VMs cosmos has the same structure, but it is not a copy. The copy of a pictorial Earth is another pictorial Earth. The VMs doesn't do that. The cosmic boundary may be elaborate or plain and poorly drawn. That doesn't change its function. That doesn't make the VMs artist stupid. Structure is what matters, not appearance. Appearance is manipulated to create ambiguity and deception. By changing the representation of Earth from pictorial to linguistic the VMs would seem to present a code shift - though content remains to be determined. But clearly it presents the ultimate disconnect to any semblance of "similarity of appearance".
This is not the only proposed connection to various historical (artistic and literary) tropes, allegorical interpretations in the form of pictorial representations. There is a connection to the "Oresme" cosmos, but it is not through Oresme as much as it through the Parisian artists decades later.
If the presumption is that the VMs artist is either stupid or tricky. I'll go with tricky. Who wants to investigate 'stupid'? Also, the cosmos and White Aries are complex illustrations. "Stupid" would have messed that up. The artwork of the VMs displays a knowledge that the investigator may need to acquire.
RE: Water, earth and air - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-08-2026
(15-03-2026, 05:48 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nebuly lines as cosmic boundaries start to appear around 1300, and they are on full display in Christine de Pizan's Book of the Queen. Nebuly lines occur in early heraldry, but they are uncommon. [...] German heraldry used the term 'gewolkt' from 'die Wolke' also meaning cloud. Form and definition were well established before the 15th c.
But we must distinguish the "nebuly line" of heraldry from the "wolkenband" of cosmic diagrams.
The former is a simple wavy line with swollen fingers. I understand that it is meant to be a highly stylized representation of clouds, but in the example you gave it only refers to the family's name, with no cosmic implications.
The "wolkenband", on the other hand, while it started as a depiction of a stream of cloud too, it soon evolved to a specific graphical convention: scalloped band that looks like a pleated ribbon with frilled edge, with details that suggest a third dimension. For all I have seen, it was specifically used to indicate the division of a figure into "Earthly" and "Heavenly" domains, the latter assumed to be beyond the vault of the sky. Without that band, the image could be misread as if Jesus and other divine entities were present in person at a coronation, baptism, etc. This "wolkenband" had no connection to heraldry, and I wonder if it was ever used in a blason.
Even ignoring its probable sourcing from the Oresme diagram, the figure of f69v3 almost certainly depicts the same concept of the cosmos: with "land" and the "waters below" (seas) at the center, surrounded by the stars, separated from the "waters above" by the vault of the "sky". The wavy line of f68v3 should have been the latter, and therefore should have been a "wolkenband" as in the Oresme diagram -- not a nebuly line.
But actually it is neither: it has a 3D effect (unlike the "nebuly line" of heraldry) but not the fine frills along the edge (unlike the standard "wolkenband").
Again, by the time the scribe got to draw the big fold-out f85v2, he apparently had learned how a wolkenband should be drawn, and put two passable ones around the Central and East rosettes. (If he and/or the Author understood the meaning of that graphical device, that would imply that those rosettes are not supposed to be on Earth but in the Heavens.)
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 12-08-2026
The distinction is not in the line per se, but in the purpose for which it was used. Heraldry tends to simpler representations because the meaning remains the same. much artistry tends to more elaborate designs because that looks better.
The Berry Apocalypse has wolkenbands that are of a simplified structure close to the plain nebuly line.
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RE: Water, earth and air - eggyk - 12-08-2026
(11-08-2026, 11:05 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even ignoring its probable sourcing from the Oresme diagram, the figure of f69v3 almost certainly depicts the same concept of the cosmos: with "land" and the "waters below" (seas) at the center, surrounded by the stars, separated from the "waters above" by the vault of the "sky". The wavy line of f68v3 should have been the latter, and therefore should have been a "wolkenband" as in the Oresme diagram -- not a nebuly line.
But actually it is neither: it has a 3D effect (unlike the "nebuly line" of heraldry) but not the fine frills along the edge (unlike the standard "wolkenband").
I'm a little confused with the different terminology being thrown around here, but these "undulations" patterns do indeed have examples of a non-frilly line being used to depict - I think - a seperation between the earth and other planes of existence (heaven, the sky etc).
There is an example of this in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Around each personified planet depiction there is a undulation pattern. The ones in this example have no frilly patterns, but do maintain that 3D look.
The planetary section starts on 41r: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Here is saturn:
However, just after the section on 53v (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) a frilly undulation-like pattern is used to depict the 10th heaven.
So I think it is possible that the pattern does not always require the exact frilly pattern, it just matters that the reader understands that the pattern represents a cosmic boundary of sorts.
Edit: There is also use of frilly wolkenbands for what seem to be actual clouds, immediately after a non frilly pattern used as a boundary, on folios 108-110. So it's clear that the meanings of each style were flexible, at least.
RE: Water, earth and air - nablator - 12-08-2026
(12-08-2026, 11:44 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the pattern represents a cosmic boundary of sorts
... or, as in this case, the element air.
RE: Water, earth and air - eggyk - 12-08-2026
(12-08-2026, 12:37 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(12-08-2026, 11:44 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the pattern represents a cosmic boundary of sorts
... or, as in this case, the element air.
Wait, the circles around the planets represent the element air? That's the usage that I was meaning to refer to.
RE: Water, earth and air - Linda - 12-08-2026
(11-08-2026, 10:04 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a connection to the "Oresme" cosmos, but it is not through Oresme as much as it through the Parisian artists decades later.
Yes! I looked into this awhile ago. Oldest surviving copy of Oresme's Treatise of the Sphere (from before his death) is Oxford, St John's College, MS 164, the diagrams there do not look like the one we know with the cloud band similarities, the top part was not parted in two sideways, but instead was layered, with habitable between two inhabitables, too cold and too hot. So the inverted TOs that we have seen are something separate from the Oresme tradition. Cloudband version is thought to be from circa 1420 I believe. I saw a notation on the manuscript that in 1967 they hadn't identified the artist, perhaps some new investigations could be made now if that remains the case.
There was another sphere in a manuscript dated between 1425 to 1449, that looks similar to the cloudband one, sans cloudband but reversed at the top, but is not from a copy of Oresme. I couldn't find it just now. So this idea was travelling around on its own at the time.
I just came across this one by accident. It is interesting, I found it in a blog where the guy couldn't understand why water would be heavier than earth when the other two were correctly placed. Oresme had said water and earth have different centers of gravity and earth being the more noble was lighter. So maybe this is an Oresme based diagram too. That and the cloudband made it seem worth mentioning, plus it has water earth air and fire so seems appropos to the thread in general. I don't know what it says in the manuscript it is from, didn't find the full page yet.
![[Image: capture2.png]](https://medievalkarl.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/capture2.png)
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I saw a date of 1435-1440 and one that said late 15th century. I found another page from the same item and it has another similar cloudband along with Voynichy looking stars. British Library Additional 37049.
I think all of these we have seen before though.
RE: Water, earth and air - Linda - 12-08-2026
(11-08-2026, 10:04 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a connection to the "Oresme" cosmos, but it is not through Oresme as much as it through the Parisian artists decades later.
Quote:Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote:
I like to emphasize that VMS rosette here shares to same way of viewing the world like "Oresme" ("" because I have in mind that the drawings are not Oresmes own work).
Yes! I looked into this awhile ago. Oldest surviving copy of Oresme's Treatise of the Sphere (from before his death) is Oxford, St John's College, MS 164, the diagrams there do not look like the one we know with the cloud band similarities, the top part was not parted in two sideways, but instead was layered, with habitable between two inhabitables, too cold and too hot. So the inverted TOs that we have seen are something separate from the Oresme tradition. Cloudband version is thought to be from circa 1420 I believe. I saw a notation on the manuscript that in 1967 they hadn't identified the artist, perhaps some new investigations could be made now if that remains the case.
There was another sphere in a manuscript dated between 1425 to 1449, that looks similar to the cloudband one, sans cloudband but reversed at the top, but is not from a copy of Oresme. I couldn't find it just now. So this idea was travelling around on its own at the time.
I just came across this one by accident. It is interesting, I found it in a blog where the guy couldn't understand why water would be heavier than earth when the other two were correctly placed. Oresme had said water and earth have different centers of gravity and earth being the more noble was lighter. So maybe this is an Oresme based diagram too. That and the cloudband made it seem worth mentioning, plus it has water earth air and fire so seems appropos to the thread in general. I don't know what it says in the manuscript it is from, didn't find the full page yet.
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I saw a date of 1435-1440 and one that said late 15th century. I found another page from the same item and it has another similar cloudband along with Voynichy looking stars. British Library Additional 37049.
I think all of these we have seen before though.
Just thinking, could it be air in the 1420s cloudband Oresme, rather than cosmic boundary? The stars are on the inside of the boundary in the vms.
RE: Water, earth and air - R. Sale - 12-08-2026
Nice additions to an old investigation. There are many variations that are based on nebuly lines. Lines where the crests and troughs are 'bulbous'. There are also cosmic boundaries based on other artistic techniques.
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Even within the Book of the Queen, there is variation.
There also seems to be a subgroup based of this "white band" style.
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The Latin 'nebula' for 'cloud' or 'mist' is the etymological source for the term 'nebuly'. In an elemental interpretation, a nebuly line indicates clouds and air, just as undulating lines indicate water, and indented + rayonny lines indicate fire. In cosmic and religious interpretations cloud bands are seen as cosmic boundaries.
[There are variations and exceptions.]
In the VMs cosmos, the use of a plain nebuly line as a cosmic boundary shows that the artist follows the conventional interpretation. Repeated variations in the rosettes, in the balneological pages, and in the botanical pages as leaf margins make for interesting discussions.