If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!

If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)

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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 08-05-2017

(08-05-2017, 07:13 AM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(08-05-2017, 04:53 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, I don't understand. You say autem is always encoded like ADDEF. But isn't your alphabet supposed to shift? So how can autem always be the same word?

Sorry Koen,

I was not clear and let me show you how the shift works for Autem using a 1-1-1 shift. The shift should always increment by 1. This is really hard to show here so feel free for later quetions. The shift cipher text will always be the same letter sequence for a vord found. And so that is good for building relationships with vords Latin meanings.
AUTEM = ADDEF
ABCDEFGILMNPOQRSTUXV1234
zanihgmley&rptfsvocdubxq

I'm still not clear on what you are doing. Is this your method...

You are setting the wheel at a certain position based on a word you have predecided (you're assuming EVA "daiin" is the Latin word "autem").
You assign the first letter from several options, shift the wheel by one, assign a second letter, shift by one, and so on until you have five letters.
Then you are anagramming those five letters to make them spell the Latin word "autem".

Is that correct?

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 08-05-2017

JKP, I think I get it now. He starts at the beginning of a word, and "turns the wheel" one space for each new letter. At a new word, the wheel is reset to the initial position. This is not a conscious design, but rather a consequence of the online applications Stellar is using. It's just easier for him to guess words if he can always start at the same position.

Stellar: sorry but your method is even more useless than I thought. By resetting the wheel at the start of each word, you forfait many of the benefits of a polyalphabetic cipher. A would-be code breaker can still use one of the easiest tricks in the book: look for frequent, short words, guess what they should be and deduce from there how the cipher works. An Alberti cipher is supposed to continue across words, so telling short words will look different each time - that's the brilliance of a polialphabetic cipher.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 08-05-2017

(08-05-2017, 11:54 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP, I think I get it now. He starts at the beginning of a word, and "turns the wheel" one space for each new letter. At a new word, the wheel is reset to the initial position. This is not a conscious design, but rather a consequence of the online applications Stellar is using. It's just easier for him to guess words if he can always start at the same position.

Stellar: sorry but your method is even more useless than I thought. By resetting the wheel at the start of each word, you forfait many of the benefits of a polyalphabetic cipher. A would-be code breaker can still use one of the easiest tricks in the book: look for frequent, short words, guess what they should be and deduce from there how the cipher works. An Alberti cipher is supposed to continue across words, so telling short words will look different each time - that's the brilliance of a polialphabetic cipher.

@ Koen
I will be civil for now on Big Grin

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Let’s say the Voynich symbols are represented by three A’s: That’s what we only see
Plain Text five( B’s) invisible = Latin Outer Ring
[/font]
Numbers are for reference as to ciphered text, invisble. Inner Ring

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]AAA Voynich
0BBBBB Latin
112345 Numbers are for reference as to ciphered text.

First shift for first A = B1, second Shift for for 2nd A = B3, 3rd shift for third A=B5.[/font]

AAA
0BBBBB
112345 Numbers are for reference as to ciphered text.

First shift for first A = B1, second Shift for for 2nd A = B3, 3rd shift for third A=B5.

Idea

1393 matches, from project MD and 843 matches REST Pi for Daiin

Daiin Number 26 on the list for high frequency words

What we have left is to analyse Latin word length's to VMS vord length's by using word frequency analysis not letter frequency analysis.

Latin is the best candidate for the VMS and word frequency is the best approach by eyeballing the length of vords to words. The actual language of the VMS is Latin, but the cipher keys hold the same equivalence, because they are just as unique as the words. Now I believe once the manuscript was done Ercole made a manuscript of cipher keys and his same wheel letter ring settings stowed in two different places. He burned his Latin first copy of his memoirs. This would allow him to read it back at his leisure or refer to it as a historical record if he had to convey something to his family, friends or acquaintances. If he did use a different shift for every word then yes we will never read the VMS ever but the VMS has a pattern and that is why my cipher should be near finished if not now.

The Tarot cards were made in 1473 maybe this is the date of the VMS more will be revealed.

These are the other tools I have been using to analyse high, medium and low frequency words in both latin and Eva.
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Diane - 08-05-2017

Stellar, I wonder if you know how fortunate you are.

You have an audience among whom are competent readers and users of Latin, and highly competent cryptographers who also know the history of their art.

Your theory fails on both counts, as people have tried very nicely and very rationally to explain.

I say 'fortunate' because if you'd posted this sort of thing to the first mailing list, I daresay you could have been cautioned off-line. Had you tried it at ciphermysteries, you might have been ignored, but possibly roasted. (which is not the same as being flamed).

Had you posted it to the second mailing list, the dismissals would have been just as emphatic, but I rather think far more ad.hominem.

That people here have actually responded is a tribute to the forum's air of rational goodwill, and their troubling to concentrate on the issue - rather than resort to personal denigration - is a wonderful recommendation for both members and moderators.

So for making clear what fantastic people this new forum has attracted - I want to thank you for starting this thread. And I don't mean that sarcastically, either. We see people at their best when tested, and this has been a real test of individuals, their standards of objectivity and courtesy.

But the bottom line is that your 'solution' is demonstrably neither meaningful nor an Alberti cipher.

Or such is the sense I've taken from the comments of the Latinists and cryptographers.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 08-05-2017

@ Diane
I understand your objections the Latin looks off the cipher is quacked, but do you think the VMS is meaningless, I dare say not or you would not be here looking for the answers? You are a great intellect like most here and I agree my average mind compared to ReneZ, JKP, Koen and lot here; I'm very thankful they put up with me. I suffer from bipolar and this is all I have left to give so if you disagree you have this in mind cool, but can I agree to disagree with you?

One thing I think now JKP and you may object is that so far nothing is a sure thing in the VMS text so far even though my methods seem to celebrate early and I'm irrational. I may get lucky and get few vords correct. Thanks for your honesty and don't forget to be my buddy here Shy

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 08-05-2017

Looks as though there maybe another writer for the VMS. Here is a transcription: Ros2, Enjoy Angel

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[Image: castle-vms2.png]

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 09-05-2017

Smile

This is special for R-Sale and he wanted my thoughts on White Aries You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I Think this is the date of the invention of the Alberti Cipher. Please someone check this date out for Florence and find out what was going on? Thanks.

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[Image: jupiter-rising-out-of-aries1.png]

[Image: jupiter-rising-out-of-aries1.png]

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 11-05-2017

Sky above 41°52'59"N 12°30'E at Tue 1466 Jul 1 11:00 UTC
Viewed from Rome

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The Tubs refer to all the constellations above Aries except bootes, Because it holds the reigns of the hunting dogs. Also notice the very long word in VMS glyph's for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Giraffe) this give a strong proof for what is done here.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contains sixteen constellations above the ecliptic and Aries is omitted for July 1, 1466! Therefore, each barrel with people in them and stars equal a constellation. This proves my cipher for the VMS and providence. Bootes holds the reigns of the hunting dogs so it was not used by the Authors. I obtained similar name meanings for constellations above the horizon from the web site (Constellation of Words). Google search it.

Quote:Quote from R-Sale You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Numerous members of the Catholic ecclesiastical hierarchy would certainly have the potential to posit this identification and immediately see that the characters are in their proper hierarchical places in the celestial spheres shown in the illustration.
Heraldry: The Prequel, White Aries
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 11-05-2017

According to the constellationsofwords website you refer to, the Hunting Dogs constellation wasn't quite accepted yet in your proposed time frame:

Quote:Canes Venatici represents two dogs, two hounds, or two greyhounds, on a leash or brach, the leash held by Bootes, the Herdsman or Bear Driver as they pursue the Great Bear, Ursa Major, as it circles the Pole. The northern dog is named 'Asterion', the southern 'Chara'. The stars of this constellation first appear in the Prodromus (1690) of the inventor of this constellation; Hevelius.

I assume this issue is addressed in your $100 book on the subject.

RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 11-05-2017

(11-05-2017, 04:39 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.According to the constellationsofwords website you refer to, the Hunting Dogs constellation wasn't quite accepted yet in your proposed time frame:

Quote:Canes Venatici represents two dogs, two hounds, or two greyhounds, on a leash or brach, the leash held by Bootes, the Herdsman or Bear Driver as they pursue the Great Bear, Ursa Major, as it circles the Pole. The northern dog is named 'Asterion', the southern 'Chara'. The stars of this constellation first appear in the Prodromus (1690) of the inventor of this constellation; Hevelius.

I assume this issue is addressed in your $100 book on the subject.

I came to my senses and dropped the price to $29.95

Thanks Koen perhaps an edit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. This fits the number of Glyph's

[font=Microsoft Sans Serif]The word for hunting [or chasing] in Ancient Greek, [i]kynegia, is derived from kynos (cynos) 'dog' [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]. Around AD 150, Arrian wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ("The Hunter"), a supplement in Greek to the manual of the same name attributed to Xenophon, written five hundred and fifty years earlier. Indicating how hunting and hounds have changed in that time, Arrian describes the Vertragus (or Vertagus), a Celtic breed named for their swiftness, and ancestor of the modern greyhound [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]. Latin vertragus, is a Gaulish word from ver- + trag (Celtic := Greek trekho, to run). [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., p.119][/font][/i]

Koen your Koenstellations of the nymph's really helped out on me thinking in this direction not to mention reading this what R-sale wrote.