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+--- Thread: Petrasti's Celtic Theory (/thread-4961.html)
RE: The journey into an unknown world - Petrasti - 11-09-2025
I think we've misunderstood each other here. I'm not talking about the Gaelic language, which today has a standardized script and thus uses its own writing system with Latin letters, recognized by all speakers, to express precisely those sounds that cannot actually be expressed with Latin letters. I don't mean the letter combination that we accept as universally valid in textbooks and on the internet. I'm talking about the fact that in the Middle Ages a group of people tried to write down the sounds they couldn't express with the Latin alphabet, in order to write down their language for which there was no written form. The language example that I attached yesterday simply shows how complex the Celtic language varieties are and how difficult it is to represent this with the Latin alphabet.
To represent the sounds of Celtic languages in the Latin alphabet, a standardized letter arrangement is still required today. That's exactly what I meant by "still not compatible"
I'm attaching a few more "google hits" regarding Celtic language and Latin alphabet
"the Celtic languages faced problems with the Latin script, as the Celts did not have their own widely used writing system, and the Latin script they used for inscriptions such as coins or maps was only partially suited to their specific sounds and grammar. Problems arose because the Latin script could not represent all Celtic phonemes, which led to differences in transcription and hampered readability and the development of a standardized orthography."
"The Latin script was not ideal for representing the specific sounds and phonemes of Celtic languages. Therefore, adjustments had to be made."
"Problems between Gaelic languages and the Latin script arise because the Latin alphabet was not designed for the phonetic characteristics of Gaelic languages, leading to inaccurate representations of the language. This is due to the fact that Gaelic languages already had a complex structure when attempts were made to write them with Latin letters, and certain sounds and grammatical forms do not occur in Latin."
RE: The journey into an unknown world - dashstofsk - 11-09-2025
Most probably very few languages are completely compatible with the Latin alphabet. English supposedly has 23 different vowels sounds. More if you include regional speech. Old English also created the characters eth, thorn, yogh and wynn because their sounds could not be represented by the Latin alphabet. Today we no longer use the eth and thorn characters but we have retained their different sounds and write both 'th'. That makes English "still not compatible" also. I don't think any Gaelic speaker would recognise your claim that their language is "crazy" or "incompatible".
RE: The journey into an unknown world - Petrasti - 11-09-2025
Please stop attributing things to me that I neither meant nor said in this context.
I hope for the sake of the small group of Celtic speakers that my explanations are correct and that this fantastic view of the world will find wider access to our world. (Since I come from southern Germany, we also speak of our past.) We can continue to discuss the possibility of a Celtic origin objectively. I'll add a few more words later that are consistent with the plant images.
RE: The journey into an unknown world - Petrasti - 14-09-2025
the gop chop - from the irish the beak the mouth.
the description of the leaf shape
RE: The journey into an unknown world - Petrasti - 21-09-2025
on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. we find a climbing plant in combination with the word "kord" kolm
RE: The journey into an unknown world - Petrasti - 27-09-2025
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Why the manuscript is Celtic, grammatical basics - Petrasti - 03-10-2025
I would like to try to explain why I believe the Voynich manuscript to be Celtic based on certain grammatical structures. I deliberately use the word “Celtic” as a more precise classification is not yet possible. I personally believe the Voynich manuscript to be Hiberno-English, a Celtic language with Old English influences.
I have already uploaded documents on the derivation.
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You will also find a comparison of ch to c+h in my link.
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(I use voynichese.com to check frequencies and possibilities.)
Grammatical structure in the Voynich manuscript:
One grammatical or visually recognizable structure that we find in the Voynich manuscript is the vowel swift.
Specifically, from o to a (or vice versa).
Thus, a large number of words in the Voynich manuscript have an equivalent “partner” with the vowel swapped. This does not apply to all words, but to too many to ignore the system.
Here are a few examples:
Dom dam, chol chal, dol dal, pol pal, lol lal, cheol cheal, kooiin koaiin,
dain doin, Chor char, am om, or ar, oror arar, tol tal, chom cham,
kol kal, chaiin choiin, dar dor, daiin doiin, otchor otchar, taiin toiin,
saiin soiin, c+hol c+hal, aiir oiir, chory chary, dary dory, sal sol,
The list can be expanded many times over
The question now is whether these are words with the same meaning or not.
Given the frequency of vowel swapping, it is likely that these are the same words with swapped vowels.
I searched for vowel swaps or letter swaps in general in various languages that have the vowel swap system themselves and found examples in Middle Cymric and Cymric. In the Voynich manuscript, nouns also undergo vowel swaps, which I found very unusual, but this occurs in the same way in Cymric as a possible plural formation.
The University of Trier has a grammatical treatise on Welsh online.
However, it is in German.
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There is also an article on Wikipedia that explains Middle Welsh and Welsh.
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(Please also note the pronunciation of Welsh. )
An excerpt from the grammatical analysis by the University of Trier
Page 10:
The formation of plurals is very diverse and cannot be derived from the singular; plural forms must be learned separately, just like gender. There are derivations with vowel changes, with endings, and with a combination of both features. Occasionally, there is suppletivism, i.e., two different word stems for singular and plural. The most important types are listed below (only the singular meaning is given):
Vowel change (common types) Plural formation for nouns
a to ei a-e march : meirch ‘horse, stallion
e to i/y maneg : menig ‘glove’,
or cragen : cregyn ‘shell’
o to y suffix ffon : ffyn ‘stick’
Page 11: Ultimate a-affection
Gender and number
Only a few adjectives have their own forms for gender and number. The feminine form can only be distinguished from the masculine basic form by umlaut: w → o and y → e (so-called ultimate a-affection). Commonly used are: hwn : hon ‘this’, hwnnw : honno ‘that’, crwn : cron ‘round’, dwfn: dofn ‘deep’, llwm : llom ‘naked’, tlws : tlos ‘beautiful’; trwm : trom ‘heavy’; byr : ber ‘short’, cryf : cref ‘strong’, gwyn : gwen ‘white’, melyn : melen ‘yellow’, (the feminine forms of gwlyb : gwleb ‘wet’, sych : sech ‘dry’ are no longer used). brith : braith ‘spotted’ is an isolated case
Plurals, which also exist for only a few adjectives, are formed with vowel change and/or the suffix -(i)on. The following are used attributively: hwn, hon: hyn ‘this’, hwnnw, honno: hynny ‘that’, buan: buain ‘fast’, bychan: bychain ‘small’, ieuanc: ieuainc (or ifanc: ifainc) ‘young’; dewr : dewrion ‘brave’, du : duon ‘black’, coch : cochion ‘red’, gloyw : gloywon ‘bright’; glas : gleision ‘blue’, trwm, trom : trym ion ‘heavy’, tlawd : tlodion ‘poor’, tenau : teneuon ‘thin’. Nounified adjectives usually end in -(i)on, e.g. dall: deillion 'blind'
The Middle Welsh word crwm – crom “bent” also belongs to the a-affection.
Let's move on to the comparison with the Voynich manuscript:
(From here on, it could become more difficult, as we are leaving the familiar EVA alphabet.)
You can find the used alphabet above.
Unfortunately, I cannot spare you this. Otherwise, the word parallels between the Voynich and Celtic/English would simply not be possible).
a – a and y long and short spoken (typical in Celtic languages)
b – d
d - m
e – e
f – f
g – ch
gh – c+h
h – s
i – i
k – k
l – r
m – iin eee
n – iin ee
o – o
p – p
q – q
r- l
s – n
t – t
pq
Voynich Manuscript: kaiin = pronounced kam = translated as jagged, curvedWelsh cam (“curved, crooked, distorted”), from Middle Welsh cam, from Old Welsh cam, from Proto-Brythonic *kam, from Proto-Celtic *kambos and Old Irish camm.
In Irish, we find the genitive singular masculine form of cam as caim. (We find the same in the Voynich Manuscript: kam kaiin to kaim kaiiin).
"word division in Old Irish: In Old Irish manuscripts all words grouped around a main accent are usually written as one, e.g. conjunctions together with the attached pronoun with the following verb, also the article together with the possessive pronoun with the following noun, the copula with the following predicate, prepositions with the attached pronoun or article and
a following verb or noun"
We also find the word kaiin in the Voynich Manuscript as follows:
koiin kom
kaiiin kaim
ykaiin and ykoiin okam and akom
kokaiin kokam
chokaiin and chokoiin gokam and gokom
c+hkaiin ghkam
okaiin and okoiin okam and okom
qokaiin and qokoiin qokam and qokom
chkaiin gkam
sokaiin hokam
kekaiin kekam
tchkaiin tgkam
lkaiin rkam
olkaiin orkam
alkaiin arkam
you see that the word “kam” has a variety of prefixes, which is typical of Celtic languages. Of course, the question here is always whether it is actually the word “kam” with prefixes or whether these are different words. I am including a brief overview from Wikipedia on Irish, Welsh, and Gaelic grammatical structures, which reflect the structure of prefixes. Celtic languages are beautiful, but unfortunately they are also known for their complex grammar, word mutations, complex pronunciations, and word order.
Donkey = Irish: asal
the donkey = an t-asal
the donkeys = na hasail
eight donkeys = ocht n-asal
on the donkey = ar an asal
on the donkeys = ar na hasail
their donkeys = a Asal
Word = Irish: focal
the word = a focal
the words = na focail
the words = na bh-focal
Possessive pronouns Gaelic:
the foot: na coise
Before words beginning with consonants
my foot: mo chas
your foot: do chas
his foot: a chas
her foot: a cas
our feet: àr casan
your (pl) feet: ùr casan
their feet: an casan
the father: an athair
Before words beginning with vowels
my father: m'athair
your father: d'athair
his father: athair
their father: a h-athair
our father: àr n-athair
your (pl) fathers: ùr n-athair
their fathers: an athair
Here is a selection of prepositions from Cymric that we also find in the Voynich manuscript:
am aiin/oiin – for, at
ar al/ol - on
tan tain/toin – under
o o/y – from, of
gan chain/choin – from, through
I would like to show you some more examples to illustrate that the initial sounds are typical in the Voynich manuscript and that repetition confirms the system.
Let's take the word ban – dain, which translates as white in Irish.
We also find the word ban as follows:
doin - bon
adain – aban
odain – oban
oldain – orban
chkdain – gkban
chdain – gban
qodain – qoban
ldain – rban
For further comparisons, let's take the word bor/bar dol/dal.
The word bor/bar stands for blossom, and we find the word bur or burr in Old English. There, the word bur was used for “rough, prickly husk around the seeds or fruit of some plants,”
as in the upper head of a thistle.
Here, too, we find the same initial sounds:
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odal – obar
ydal – abar
oldal - orbar
Qodal – qobar
Chdal – gbar
C+hdal – ghbar
Chodal – gobar
odol – obor
Chedol – gebor
Chdol – gbor
Ldol - rbor
Next, we take the word kol - kor, meaning bud, from the Indo-European vocabular
kel/kol – cup, bud, calyx, sheath, flower calyx (Köbler Gerhard, Indo-European Dictionary)
We also find the word kol kor as follows:
kar – kal
ykor – akol
okor – okol
qokor – qokol
chkor – gkol
olkor – orkol
lkor – rkol
okar – okal
dkar -bkal
ykar – akal
chkar – gkal
chykar – gakal
qokar – qokal
lkar – rkal
olkar - orkal
You can check the system for other words in the manuscript; the system repeats itself. Sometimes with more, sometimes with fewer initial sound variations.
Further examples: bal and bol dar / dor the word kor and kar kol kal
Bam and bom daiin doiin kad and kod kam kom, tor and tar tol tal
gea and geo chey cheo, rar and ror lol lal, loiin and laiin rom und ram
A special feature is the letter ch and the words beginning with ch c+h. The variety is greatest with this letter. (see link above)
The letter itself exists as ch or c+h. I compared the words with ch and c+h in the Voynich manuscript, and around 88% of the words beginning with c+h also exist with ch. Given this value, I assume that they are the same word. With the letter ch, we have the same initial sounds as mentioned above, but it is noticeable that the gallow signs with the letter ch are particularly often connected.
as for example:
root word stam: chor
char, c+hor, cThor, cPhor, cFhor, ckhor, kchor, pchor, fchor, tchor, qotchor, qopchor, qokchor, qofchor, cheor, c+heor, dchor, ochor, ychor, lchor, olchor, rchor
We find another peculiarity in the Voynich manuscript that we also find in Old Irish manuscripts:
"the words cluster around a main accent are usually written as one word"
(from Indo-European Library ‘Collection of Indo-European Textbooks and Manuals’ Indo-European Library ‘1st Series: Grammars’ by Rudolf Thurneysen, Heidelberg 1909)
Ydarchom is also mentioned as single words: y and dar and chom
ocholc+hod also mentioned as single words as: o and chol and c+hod
c+holteol also mentioned as single words as: c+hol and teol
choddal also mentioned as single word as: chod dal
otolodal also mentioned as single word as: o tol o dal
pcheodar also mentioned as single word as: p cheo dar
These are just a few examples to illustrate the process. In fact, there are many more examples in the manuscript.
RE: Why the manuscript is Celtic, grammatical basics - tavie - 03-10-2025
Hi Petrasti. As Koen said to you before, we have a "one thread one theory" rule. This is another thread about your theory, so I've merged it with your core thread.
RE: The journey into an unknown world - AxolotlDoesVoynich - 10-12-2025
For Petrasti:
Here are some words, what percentage of them is in the Voynich Manuscript?
iini
tu
en
ninin
nwin, nwinwin
eyen
ne, niinmon, noniin
eiino, niinmome
noinmo, uiinain
ainma, kei
kei
kim
kutn
kaino
ine, inin
oryon
firu
inekon
dikkaino, inekon
aryon, alaryon
oiinon, oiinainon
mwau
tlin
ketwolen
keinke
dlannon, iinalon
nilon
fritainon
leiinlon, techun
tluiiniinon
dikkon
dillon, chellon
ainchun
tainauyon
deina
wilon
chmoinyon
iinuntakon
wilon
iinatil
fatil
iiniroiin
feinkon
fatal, fetinon
ku
ruwa
inatlixn
kliiinin
kleninoiin
kaito
rolcha
nutu
necheto, niroiin
moriinya
wlima
lunkon
dratun
cherta
roiinaina
klokkeinoiin, klokinoiin
kikon, iinilon
klowon
antkolinu, kinaiinin
chelem
auyoiin
kolinu
ronta
worton
keininoiin
aunon, krounta
rukato
nlochina
cheinun
maint
tainchann
ainchiina
tlechenn
koxna
chruinon
fraiina
fataini
dorchon
iinoinin
dlunu, kikon
karoina, klimyoiin
aw
fideti
enni, fiteti
kinayeti
miinati
nkeyeti
nwixmeti
ainati
nwalyeti
wereti
kriinutol
wiinmeti
aiindilamiti
odineti
kuxnketi
dayeti
chaineti
wiketi
nercha
diinati
mroincheti
laxmeti
kramyeti
ninati
feteti
recheti
nemeti
nintati
nuweti
kiyeti
mati
mercheti
inichyeti
katyeti
licheti
kaineti
riyeti
nweimeti
nawor
einkyoiin, ruchla
ntela
mudlon, umeinnkyon
chrawa, worko
adu
riinina
iinoli
narainon
kruka, iinachiino
taraiinu
kiwo
ineiinon
wiinton
ninichyo
yechin
iinuk
tefinetn
routun
mauyeti
neintun
iinoiniyo
melchon, loumon
chranton
domyon
dainon, cheron, wiinmon
mudun
inoxn
miyon
dreimaini
tefniini
ouchlon
frainon
inouyon
neinon
machon, iinatin
mlukon, urkon
dlachinon
narakon
kluinmin
keldon
iinairon
nriiinoinon
wrikon
ninkon
efiinon
oinkon
keiinon, kenron
mexnwon
kriyon
oinkon
ein
kainta, koiin
ke, atke, eti
niina
ainiinain