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+--- Thread: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? (/thread-3643.html)
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - R. Sale - 29-06-2026
I don't know about the tower. My pareidolia is stuck on the long walls of Bellinzona.
The heraldry is interesting and potentially accurate, but too recent. A 15th Century representation would be far more convincing.
While this has been and continues to be an interesting and informative discussion directly connected to the VMs, it is an investigation with quite limited specificity in regard to either place or time. The VMs illustration is a strong suggestion that the artist has seen historical Ghibelline fortifications, which may apply to those who crossed the Alpine passes in journeys to and from Venice or Rome.
This thread is a list of examples, but the topic is "15th C. perception.
AI Almighty says - 14th C. "By the 14th century, the era of direct Imperial interference in Italy waned, and the Papacy relocated to Avignon, France. Without the central backing of Emperor or Pope, the bloody feud slowly died out. The deep structural and political divisions left by the Guelphs and Ghibellines permanently shaped Italian city-states, paving the way for intense regional competition and the rise of local signori (lords) during the early Renaissance." Avignon 1309-1376
Starting at 1400 then, are swallowtail merlons still seen as something more than scenic reminders of the past?
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - DG97EEB - 30-06-2026
I'm don't sure it matters, does it? The origin of the swallowtails is well established. The fact they persisted on castles for centuries after is not contested. The point is if we assume that although perhaps not literal, the imagery is at least deliberate, one can reasonably infer a place of not exactly a time. The time we already have from RC dating, so all that can reasonably be inferred at this point is some point in the 15th century, someone who had some connection to these environs decided to copy this on to vellum/parchment. My point is whether if we take a combination of factors on that page outside the swallowtails, we might learn anything further?
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - sōlstəs - 30-06-2026
Huhu, I want to comeback to the missing flag for Salerno on the swallow tail merlon map.
It was still not added. Is there any reason? Salerno had approved all kind of swallowtail merlons and plenty of the similar manuscript art (in manuscripts at least 200 years older than the MS Beinecke 408).
I suggested allready one manuscript (see below) with similar picturing.
I have collected in sum about 33 original composite manuscripts, that belong all to the same 500 year old school. From 11 different scholars.
You want me to upload all of them here? So can you copy and paste-add-them with a manuscript art flag/marker on your map?
Or do we need a new thread for this?
This might be really interesting for all lingusitic purposes as well, I guess. Since I cannot translate them myself. But for that reason I am in the linguistic portal, right?
(29-06-2026, 01:50 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can I submit a manuscript "Liber ad Honorem Augusti" for this map?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are allowed to track this link here: "https://www.e-codices.ch/de/bbb/0120-2/97r/0/"
It is from the poet Pietro da Eboli and it is picturing all kind of swallowtail merlons on different infrastructures. Since this autor belonged to a specific school which still seems to be missing on your map ... could you please add this entry under "manuscript art" and "swallowtail merlons"?
What else can you find in just this one manuscript? Archers, moons, stars, scholars, kings and queens, palaces, crowns, galeros, animals, plants, hills, medicine, philophosy, religion, believe systems, history writing.
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - Koen G - 30-06-2026
That manuscript uses rectangular merlons throughout, am I missing something? Unless you are talking about the leftmost tower on that page you sent, which just looks like the scribe having a bad moment to me.
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - sōlstəs - 30-06-2026
I can see clearly merlons. The whole manuscript is full of them. Did you have time to check all the folios?
And even... if they are "sloppy" painted, even if the painter had a "bad moment" as you mentioned... don't you think, that the manuscript as whole is at least worth to be called "same manuscript"-art? And added for this reason?
Plus the coat of arm of the medivial city of Salerno is carring merlons as well. See down below, cited again. I think those merlons are not better nor worse in quality than the other attributions in this thread. And their provenience is clearly approved, since the manuscript itself is from the late 12th century, it is complete and the author is known. What do you think?
(29-06-2026, 07:46 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just look here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And the guests can use this link: "https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Wappen_in_der_Provinz_Salerno#/media/Datei:Salerno-Stemma.svg"
It's a coat of arms of the Civitas Hippocratica, today known as Salerno. I guess you had another discussion going on about "Yppocrates" today ... in another thread. Do you need more evidences? And what kind of?
In case, this map (thread) belongs to special hypothesis (maybe to a project that is only focussing on the Alpine region), then please let me know. I couldn't figure it out, if this map is straight connected to a thesis for a limited place of origin. Then of course, you don't need to add Salerno to your map. It is way to South for supporting an origin in the Alps, it is clearly South of Naples.
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - sōlstəs - 03-07-2026
Friendly reminder:
Why is Salerno with its medical school and the shared manuscript compilations still not added to your map? What are the reasons?
Your map seems to be the basis for all discussions about potential places of origins. Experts (Phd. Lisa Fagin Davis) cite your research to close up to the origin. It was used as example, why Phd. Cheshires thesis must be wrong. So, I have some questions myself.
1. Does your map explicit work only for the Alpine region?
2. As prove for your own special thesis?
3. Does your map hold all (past) identified infrastructure and manuscript collections of further/past researchers?
You know, you are the admin here, you could have collected all swallowtail merlons of all users to display the results of a collective work. Since not all threads are visible (not even with an active user), it is impossible for me to follow up your map structure. And the issues, that you are deleting posts without notice, doesn't makes things easier, when it comes to trust the data.
But since you did not answer my initial request, I will ask again. Can you please clarify my questions? That would help to heal the search algorithm and safe a lot of people a lot of time. Until now, the state is unclear, but you and some experts provoke a wording and an interpretation of a peer reviewed, truth-speaking database when it comes to this merlon map. Please describe and display the purpose of this map.
As well I would like to see a list (csv., excel) with the approved results (real manuscripts for "art"-flags including weblinks and "proves" of all swallow-tail-merlons from before 1450). This thread structure is horrible for any validation and cross-checking, the search function is useless as well, the limiting functions are well known. The metatags in the map are without links.
I heard in one of your plenty videos, that you were trying to fix a blind spot with this map. It was sounding like you figured out a blind spot. Please correct me here, I am unable to find the expression after reading and consuming all of your visual works.
1. What kind of blind spot did you mean?
2. Is there an older map, that is showing the blind spot?
3. When did you create this map? When was it first published?
General request: The way you split your ideas and contents over different channels (forum, threads, website, youtube, reddit, patron) makes it impossible, to follow up your data, ideas and blend it together. As a scientiest and especially linguist you should know better how to organize information, that need to be trustworthy. So please answer my questions and allow me to check your database without expecting me to click trough more than 50 pages, different threads and plattforms again.
Thanks for your support.
(30-06-2026, 06:52 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see clearly merlons. The whole manuscript is full of them. Did you have time to check all the folios?
And even... if they are "sloppy" painted, even if the painter had a "bad moment" as you mentioned... don't you think, that the manuscript as whole is at least worth to be called "same manuscript"-art? And added for this reason?
Plus the coat of arm of the medivial city of Salerno is carring merlons as well. See down below, cited again. I think those merlons are not better nor worse in quality than the other attributions in this thread. And their provenience is clearly approved, since the manuscript itself is from the late 12th century, it is complete and the author is known. What do you think?
(29-06-2026, 07:46 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just look here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And the guests can use this link: "https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Wappen_in_der_Provinz_Salerno#/media/Datei:Salerno-Stemma.svg"
It's a coat of arms of the Civitas Hippocratica, today known as Salerno. I guess you had another discussion going on about "Yppocrates" today ... in another thread. Do you need more evidences? And what kind of?
In case, this map (thread) belongs to special hypothesis (maybe to a project that is only focussing on the Alpine region), then please let me know. I couldn't figure it out, if this map is straight connected to a thesis for a limited place of origin. Then of course, you don't need to add Salerno to your map. It is way to South for supporting an origin in the Alps, it is clearly South of Naples.
RE: 15thc perception on swallowtail merlons? - MarcoP - 03-07-2026
What the map tells us so far is that swallowtail-merlons appeared everywhere in Italy, so it seems likely that they were built and/or depicted in works from Salerno too. We just lack specific evidence from Salerno, but that’s not a big deal in my opinion: one more data-point in Salerno would not make much difference for the big picture.
(30-06-2026, 06:52 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see clearly merlons. The whole manuscript is full of them.
Check the thread’s title please. You are missing the important qualification swallowtail merlons. Ordinary merlons were literally everywhere all over Europe, swallowtail melons are rarer and limited to a specific geographic area.
(29-06-2026, 07:46 PM)sōlstəs Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just look here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And the guests can use this link: "https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Wappen_in_der_Provinz_Salerno#/media/Datei:Salerno-Stemma.svg"
It's a coat of arms of the Civitas Hippocratica, today known as Salerno. I guess you had another discussion going on about "Yppocrates" today ... in another thread. Do you need more evidences? And what kind of?
Check the thread’s title please. You are missing that we are looking for works that existed in the 15th century (I seem to remember the threshold was set to “before 1450”). The coat of arms you linked was drawn in 2011, six centuries too late. Before 2011, a different version made in 1996 was in use; the 1996 version added the words “Hippocratica Civitas” (that didn't appear in earlier 20th century versions) and didn’t feature swallowtail merlons.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
About “the Civitas Hippocratica, today known as Salerno” - the city was always known as Salerno. E.g. see Horace “Epsitolarum Liber Primus” (1st Century BC)
Quae sit hiems Veliae, quod caelum, Vala, Salerni,