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+--- Thread: A possible way to break down Voynich text (/thread-713.html)
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - ReneZ - 10-09-2016
(09-09-2016, 01:00 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anyone have a list of all the folios where j is supposed to be? Would be interesting to check if all of them are Currier B or not.
The ring that I mentioned is notable by that it holds the same sequence four times, but only once 8 is written as j.
The character j was introduced by Currier in his transcription alphabet, and written as 7.
In the early days of the mailing list, there was an activity to extend the incomplete transcription of Currier / D'Imperio, and the question of this character was discussed quite a bit.
I have the following list of occurrences. Note that the notation [ab] means 'a' or 'b' (uncertain) but more likely a.
Many if not most of these can be contested, and transcription of the Voynich MS is a very subjective activity since we don't really know the alphabet, nor the language.
f6r.11 olchaj
f6v.4 jajy
f23r.9 [dj]she
f24r.17 cthoj
f47r.2 cha[dj]aiin
f55r.11 oka[mj]
f57r.9 daii[dj]y
f67r1.C2 chetejy
f68v1.C1 yee[gj]
f72r1.C1 a[dj]al
f75r.26 dar,ajy
f82r.L7 okaira[dj]y
f86r3.S13 ofdaj
f88r.4 cheo[jm]am
f96v.1 osoj
f105r.31 aii[jd]y
f105r.32 ajam
f106r.4 arojy
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - ThomasCoon - 10-09-2016
Thank you Rene for the information about <j> - It's really good to have somebody who knows VMS decryption history!
I played with my units theory last week and produced some Latin -
It's not the right answer because it doesn't work in other places, but just for fun: "a jar of this plant then [goes] on a metal hoop"
Again, just for fun. A nice failed attempt
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - -JKP- - 10-09-2016
(10-09-2016, 01:25 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you Rene for the information about <j> - It's really good to have somebody who knows VMS decryption history!
I played with my units theory last week and produced some Latin -
It's not the right answer because it doesn't work in other places, but just for fun: "a jar of this plant then [goes] on a metal hoop"
...
Thomas, I want to give you credit for recognizing that finding a few words if they do not generalize to the rest of the document is not a solution. It's amazing how many people don't comprehend that.
We've seen quite a few researchers claim they found a few words and then handing it off to the rest of the community to "finish" (while reserving the credit for the "solution" for themselves) when in fact a few or even a few dozen words can be discovered in almost any language in the VMS and means nothing and can never be verified if the system doesn't apply anywhere else.
Keep trying (I'm sure you will).
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - Anton - 10-09-2016
Thank you Rene. Here's my review of this list.
Currier designations are taken from voynich.nu. Assessment of whether a character is or is not a j is my personal one. To exclude bias, I first assesыed the characters, and only then looked up for Currier A/B.
Red means "not a j". Green means a j. Blue is undecided.
f6r.11 olchaj - not a j. An m. Faded descender is visible.
f6v.4 jajy - Currier A
f23r.9 [dj]she - not a j. A d.
f24r.17 cthoj - not a j. An m. Faded descender is visible.
f47r.2 cha[dj]aiin - uncertain
f55r.11 oka[mj] - uncertain
f57r.9 daii[dj]y - not a j. A d.
f67r1.C2 chetejy - not sure if I'm looking at the right vord, but this one definitely has e as its base shape, hence cannot be a j. A curious case of d with the disjointed loop.
f68v1.C1 yee[gj] - e is the base shape, a choice between d and g.
f72r1.C1 a[dj]al - could not find this one
f75r.26 dar,ajy - Currier B
f82r.L7 okaira[dj]y - Currier B
f86r3.S13 ofdaj - not sure what folio is this
f88r.4 cheo[jm]am - clear visibilty of the difference between j and m - Currier A
f96v.1 osoj - Currier A
f105r.31 aii[jd]y - Currier B
f105r.32 ajam - clear visibilty of the difference between j and m - Currier B
f106r.4 arojy - Currier B
Let's add You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. here (as mentioned above) which is also Currier B.
Results:
9 confirmed occurrences of j. Of those 3 are in Currier A and 6 are in Currier B. The range of folios is from 6 to 106.
Conclusions:
j is not Currier-specific and is not a "later" introduction for later folios. It is a legitimate glyph.
The bad thing is that this undermines the elegance of the "base shape + tail modifier" scheme. Perhaps something did not fit and the author was in need to design an additional symbol?
Not sure if it helps you, Thomas, or not, but for what it's worth :-) .
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - ThomasCoon - 10-09-2016
(10-09-2016, 02:03 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(10-09-2016, 01:25 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you Rene for the information about <j> - It's really good to have somebody who knows VMS decryption history!
I played with my units theory last week and produced some Latin -
It's not the right answer because it doesn't work in other places, but just for fun: "a jar of this plant then [goes] on a metal hoop"
...
Thomas, I want to give you credit for recognizing that finding a few words if they do not generalize to the rest of the document is not a solution. It's amazing how many people don't comprehend that.
We've seen quite a few researchers claim they found a few words and then handing it off to the rest of the community to "finish" (while reserving the credit for the "solution" for themselves) when in fact a few or even a few dozen words can be discovered in almost any language in the VMS and means nothing and can never be verified if the system doesn't apply anywhere else.
Keep trying (I'm sure you will).
Thank you -JKP-. I was not aware that other people did that
Well, I'll be back if get the full answer
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - stellar - 22-12-2016
@ Coon
I hope not to be ignorant here.
I have a few questions. Have you stopped this theory or are you still working on it? Since you found 26 combinations and you explain them to be letters, would this indicate English instead of Latin? If you use combinations does this lower the word entropy? You say the spaces are fake and do you still believe that?
You must have worked on this quite some time so Great Job if that means anything?
Why are some glyph s equaled as the same glyph when they are different and how do you figure that?
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - -JKP- - 22-12-2016
(22-12-2016, 06:42 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
If you use combinations does this lower the word entropy?...
Stellar, if you have to ask this question rather than immediately comprehending the answer, then you don't understand entropy well enough to make use of the information and are basically asking Thomas to do your thinking (and work) for you.
To see that the answer to this question is obvious, first you need to get a better grasp of entropy. You can look it up on the Net or read my introductory blog about entropy or Anton's more extensive description of entropy that he graciously posted on this forum.
Questions are always good, I encourage people to ask questions, but some questions indicate that you have some homework to do and getting a one-word answer (or a longer answer) from Thomas would not give you the base you need to understand the answer fully. You will have a better grasp of what Thomas posted up-thread if you do some background reading on entropy so that you can answer this question for yourself.
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - Anton - 22-12-2016
Quote:or Anton's more extensive description of entropy that he graciously posted on this forum
Well, the extensive description of entropy is still to be posted, for now there's the description of "information" and "probability"...
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - -JKP- - 22-12-2016
(22-12-2016, 03:41 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:or Anton's more extensive description of entropy that he graciously posted on this forum
Well, the extensive description of entropy is still to be posted, for now there's the description of "information" and "probability"...
Yes, I probably should have said, "in progress". It demonstrates how grasping something it on a conceptual level, but then describing it in detail for a general audience (or for repeatability) can be a real challenge.
It's like the story of Shrödinger's cat. One can comprehend the story, but describing and doing the math is a "whole 'nuther level".
We appreciate your hard work.
RE: A possible way to break down Voynich text - Anton - 22-12-2016
There is really no challenge, it more about lack of time and a bit of procrastination
