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+--- Thread: My thoughts on the VMS (/thread-630.html)
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - -JKP- - 17-09-2016
(17-09-2016, 03:17 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Thomas wrote:
This is wonderful work, Searcher!I think you have made a wonderful argument for a null character, possibly <q>!
At one time I also wondered if there is a null character (or null characters) in the text. I didn't focus on <q> but I wondered if <o> and <e> were the nulls, because they are often interchangeable, and there are versions of the same strings with different numbers of <e>'s and <o>'s (and you have noticed this also). Here are examples from my notes, if this helps:
qo-ko--dyqoted-y
qo-ke--dyqoted-y
qo-kee-dyqoted-y
qo-te--dyqoted-y
qo-tee-dyqoted-y
op-she-dyqoted-y
op-che-dyqoted-y
op-ch--dyqoted-y
she-dyqoted-y
sh--dyqoted-y
aiin-che-dyqoted-y-
aiin-ch--dyqoted-y-
However, my observation does not explain why <qol> words can also have <ol> counterparts.
I also don't know "whether they are only two real word combinations or all these in their distinctions," but my guess is that some characters are repeated to disguise the text, in the same way that we have <ain, aiin, aiiin>.
Nick Pelling posted this example of two strings that repeat on page 84r (this is the longest repeating text in the VMS), and one way that they differ is the number of <e> characters:
<f84r.P.3> shedy qokedy qokeedy qokedy chedy okain chey
<f84r.P.10> shedy qokedy qokeedy qokeedy chedy raiin chey
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
So I agree with you - something looks like it may be a null
I'm doubtful that 4/4o is a null. Why add null to only specific kinds of words? Nulls are intended to obscure not elaborate.
I'm not yet sure what it is, even though I can predict and trace many of the 4o vords, but... I suspect it's a designator.
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - Koen G - 17-09-2016
I'm wirh JKP on this one. There are so many possibilities other than null.
One should also take into account that initial o does appear a lot in labels while 4 doesn't. This might be a hint to their different nature.
Personally I believe that initial o is something like an article. A diacritic is something I often consider, though in that case it would be strange that almost all gallows are preceded by o.
4 might be an abbreviated linking word or something similar.
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - -JKP- - 17-09-2016
I think the number of <e> characters is significant, so much so that I immediately rejected the Takahashi transcription and created my own, partly because he neglected to include some of the <e> glyphs, almost as if he were reluctant to accept that there could be three or sometimes four in a row. That kind of editing, based on preconceived notions of natural language, can affect the results.
I think it's entirely possible that <ee> (which I call <cc> because I don't like imposing meaning on the shape of the glyphs) could be a digraph and may function separately or differently from a single <e>.
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - MarcoP - 17-09-2016
(16-09-2016, 11:00 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP, Thomas, thank you for your work on the text analysis, for bringing up the issues of spaces, null words, word structure in the VMs etc. I've found many important points for myself, moreover, I want to do my bit, too.Hello Searcher,
I've made a comparative table of word combinations (pairs) with the two VMs words: ol and qol.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "word combinations (pairs)".
These occur in your pdf table:
qol olkedy
ol qotchdy
qol qotchdy
By I don't seem to be able to find them in the VMS.
If they are Voynichese word sequences, which transcription are you using? On which folio/line are these sequences?
If they aren't word sequences, what are they?
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - ThomasCoon - 17-09-2016
(17-09-2016, 03:30 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm doubtful that 4/4o is a null. Why add null to only specific kinds of words? Nulls are intended to obscure not elaborate.
I'm not yet sure what it is, even though I can predict and trace many of the 4o vords, but... I suspect it's a designator.
For the record I agree - I'm not sure that either is a null, and if one was, then I would vote "o" in certain places instead of "4". But it is so hard to determine what "evidence" is real and what is textual coincidence
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - Wladimir D - 17-09-2016
(17-09-2016, 07:04 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the number of <e> characters is significant, so much so that I immediately rejected the Takahashi transcription and created my own, partly because he neglected to include some of the <e> glyphs, almost as if he were reluctant to accept that there could be three or sometimes four in a row. That kind of editing, based on preconceived notions of natural language, can affect the results.
I think it's entirely possible that <ee> (which I call <cc> because I don't like imposing meaning on the shape of the glyphs) could be a digraph and may function separately or differently from a single <e>.
For example. Sometimes, even the carrier of the Russian language with great difficulty can read the handwritten words contains the consecutive "eeeeeeeeee", as there are the letters “и, ш, щ, ц"
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - Emma May Smith - 17-09-2016
(17-09-2016, 07:04 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the number of <e> characters is significant, so much so that I immediately rejected the Takahashi transcription and created my own, partly because he neglected to include some of the <e> glyphs, almost as if he were reluctant to accept that there could be three or sometimes four in a row. That kind of editing, based on preconceived notions of natural language, can affect the results.
I think it's entirely possible that <ee> (which I call <cc> because I don't like imposing meaning on the shape of the glyphs) could be a digraph and may function separately or differently from a single <e>.
I've wondered if [e] and [i] sequences are almost a kind of code. So that rather than [ee] being a combination of digraph of two [e], it signifies one of a class of items. So their values are linked in some way, but rather than one being somehow double the other, the doubling only really shows which of the class of values is meant.
For example, in Welsh orthography a single 'f' denotes the sound /v/ while 'ff' is the sound /f/. Obviously /f, v/ are linked sounds, and the doubling up of the character seems to signify 'the other f' rather than something inherent to the sound. Whereas in English orthography 'ee' and 'oo' are attempts to show length by doubling.
The question is--at least for linguistic research--is how educated medieval people understood sounds and how they classified them.
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - Searcher - 17-09-2016
(17-09-2016, 08:58 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-09-2016, 11:00 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP, Thomas, thank you for your work on the text analysis, for bringing up the issues of spaces, null words, word structure in the VMs etc. I've found many important points for myself, moreover, I want to do my bit, too.Hello Searcher,
I've made a comparative table of word combinations (pairs) with the two VMs words: ol and qol.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "word combinations (pairs)".
These occur in your pdf table:
qol olkedy
ol qotchdy
qol qotchdy
By I don't seem to be able to find them in the VMS.
If they are Voynichese word sequences, which transcription are you using? On which folio/line are these sequences?
If they aren't word sequences, what are they?
Word pairs are word pairs, i. e. a word of interest + a previous or a next word to it.
I think, the matter is not in the transcription (I used Takeshi Takahashi's one), I always check it on Voynichese. Probably, my mistake is that I united three variations (with e, ee and ch) in one cell. Of course, this approach based only on an assumption that they substitute each other. In fact, there are:
olkedy qol (qol olkedy) - f75v, P.3.33
qotedy qol (qol qotchdy) - f81r, P.13
ol qoteedy (ol qotchdy) - f103v, P.4
As well, I can add ol chy and qol chy. I just have a lack of time to embrace all examples.
Anyway, I think, this table is not significant for statistics, it is rather useful in a certain theory, but the second table is more interesting, because of their similarity, location and sequence. As Thomas mentioned:
Quote:Nick Pelling posted this example of two strings that repeat on page 84r (this is the longest repeating text in the VMS), and one way that they differ is the number of <e> characters:
<f84r.P.3> shedy qokedy qokeedy qokedy chedy okain chey
<f84r.P.10> shedy qokedy qokeedy qokeedy chedy raiin chey
On my view, in any case these words in sequence can't be verbs. They likely can be nouns and / or adjectives. For example, I will take only one variant of my interpretation in Latin for every word (consider it just as example):
f84r.P.3> shedy qokedy qokeedy qokedy chedy okain chey
q-null: avidum, negatum locutum, negatum vatem, increditum aium
q-per-, pr-: avidum, pernegatum procatum, pernegatum vatem, increditum aium
q-per (ref.): avidum per negatum, per locutum, per negatum vatem in creditum aium
q-et (conj.): avidum et negatum, et locutum, et negatum vatem increditum aium
All the rest in the section "bathes" and "recipes" is in similar vein.
To me, the first variant looks more natural, but... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (5-6 lines):
... ol kedy okedy qoky okeedy qokey qokedy okedy qokeedy okeedy shedy qoky...
a) with q-presence - os catum negatum procum locutum proquam pernegatum locutum procatum locutum avidum procum...
b) without q - os catum negatum logum locutum inquam negatum negatum locutum locutum avidum logum
There is not only a strange repetition, but 11 words in sequence with the ending "y".
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - Emma May Smith - 25-09-2016
I wish to alter my opinion on word spaces slightly. I've considered the question further and have tried to be more open-minded.
I believe that word spaces are not arbitrary. The writer inserted them into the text at relevant points. They should definitely not by totally ignored and removed.
However, I'm willing to concede that they may not always divide words in a consistent manner. It would not surprise me if we found some words split into two (at syllable or morpheme boundaries). Almost as if "asleep" and "unknowable" could be written "a sleep" and "un know able". This is speculation, however, but something I'm willing to consider.
RE: My thoughts on the VMS - stellar - 26-09-2016
(09-09-2016, 12:33 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the spirit of collaboration, here are two things I've noticed:
1. o can appear next to almost every other Voynich letter and frequent combinations (and it is the only Voynich letter that can do this):
oe, qo, ot, ok, or, oy, om, oi, oiin, of, op, os, oo, oa, ol, oSh
2. I made a chart of the qo- words. It is not a full chart, but it should be helpful to someone researching this topic:
Thomas Coon and all,
I see a great deal of 4,8,9 and even greater 4,9 combinations here on what we agree as numbers representing letters. Some of the regulars here now know my theory or axiom is that the Voynich is a form numerology in which I found proper place marks for the Zodiac in 67r2 as a welsh language.
If the Author is using numerology, he would use the number glyph's on a regular basis to make words or nulls for addition sake. Also to make the book look like it has a great deal of vowels glyphs o and 9 are vowels and a frequency count for the voynich on glyphs shows this.
Furthermore, why so many word repetitions and many words start with the same letter in the Voynich Manuscript? The big problem with my method is without labels I feel we will never know what a voynich sentence is decoded too. Our only hope is that perhaps the Author used another book that is known, like the Bible or Dante's Inferno to see some type of pattern if my method is correct. Now if the Author encoded his own book we are probably out of luck using numerology to figure out sentences.
So thats what I'll look into thanks