f80r top nymphs - Printable Version

f80r top nymphs - Printable Version

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RE: f80r top nymphs - ReneZ - 04-05-2016

(04-05-2016, 07:28 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Voynich is what it is though, I can't help that.

What it is, or what it is not, that's the question. Rolleyes

It is not always easy to disentangle observations from assumptions and from propositions.

That the Voynich MS is 'not part of the same tradition' is a case in point.
Part of this statement is an observation (it is different), but another part is a propostion or assumption (namely which tradition it is not part of).
One cannot use propositions or assumptions as 'supporting evidence'. In the end it all becomes one large theory.
But that's fine of course.

RE: f80r top nymphs - Davidsch - 05-05-2016

Referring to that first posting, what i see on that particular page (which is about weddings and thinsg like that) i see

a white handkerchief.

handkerchiefs were in those times exchanged between lovers as a token of love and loyalty

RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 19-05-2016

I have revisited this story in my latest post, incorporating the rest of the folio and f76v, which, judging by the narrative flow, I think originally was to the left of this folio. The resulting story line looks like this:

[Image: untitled-1.jpg?w=616]

The mistake I made in my first analysis was to move immediately to the left starting in the top right corner, while actually I had to follow the river down first, only to then continue towards the left and onto the previous page.

The scene I marked with a (rather ugly) "2" here, depicts the actual raping. The king has grown a pair of boobs, but this can be explained as a result of copyists re-interpreting sexless males. I have provided similar examples of this from other manuscripts (remember hercules vaginatus). Especially material that was later copied from Greco-Roman sources suffers from this problem, which suits the timeline I have in mind for the Voynich material.

One more thing I will include here already:

The top two figures are Philomela and Tereus (reinterpreted as a woman) engaged in the struggle of sexual assault. This is the moment when Philomela, on the left, her hair disheveled, stands up and declares that she will tell everybody about what happened. Tereus-now-Terea on the right is seen in shock, as he realizes his wife will find out about the crime he committed upon her sister. The story then flows on to the left, where we see Philomela being imprisoned and mutilated (JKP already remarked the similarity between this scene and the one from Ovid).

Next, we come to the image in the bottom of the picture, below the rape scene. Rene correctly remarked that exactly this critical scene was missing from my first analysis. We see Philomela picking up the thread of the story - the thread of her fate - and changing it into a wavy fabric as it flows across her hand. To make it even more obvious, she directs her gaze upward, filled with horror but also determination, towards the previous scene, where she vows to do exactly this: to make Tereus' crimes known to the world.

This is my most image-heavy post so far, so once again I will ask to read the full analysis on my blog. I have done my best to keep it fluently readable, and focus on the parts that weren't included in previous posts:
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RE: f80r top nymphs - Davidsch - 27-05-2016

@Koen

Reading parts of your story i must say i am not convinced of the Ovid story, although at first the connection was interesting.

The conclusion that we see "sexual assault and rape" is far from what is drawn here, in my honest opinion.

The overall bathing section shows a peaceful and harmoniously setting in which the
ladies "touch" or are "touched by" water and i see no evil aspect in any page there.

RE: f80r top nymphs - VViews - 27-05-2016

Hi Davidsch,

I'm not convinced by the Ovid story either. The reasons are those you give and those given earlier in the thread that key parts of the story are missing. Also more generally I have other reservations about Koen Gh's theory that the whole balneo section illustrates the Metamorphoses, but I guess I should save that for somewhere else.

However, I'm not really sure about your last assertion either: that the whole of the balneo section is peaceful. There are a couple of scenes, particularly on folio 80 (r and v) that seem to illustrate impending stabbing (leftmost two nymphs on 80r), possible hair-pulling (third down rightside marginal nymphs on 80v), and potential trampling (two nymphs standing and one laying down on the bottom left of 80v).
Of course all of these are ambiguous, and the "hair-pulling" could be putting the other ones' hair up in a bun (although the other one does not seem to be enjoying it!), while the trampling could just be an effect of awkward perspective/composition. To me, it's really still unclear.

RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 27-05-2016

David

I am currently unraveling these pages, and my insights are still evolving. I am getting more certain about five folios in the bathing section: f76v, f80r, f80v, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and f79v.

Roughly speaking, I think what happened is the following:
1) At the base, we have information about stars and constellations. Think of a star chart, a list of constellations, a celestial sphere... Those kinds of things.
2) Someone took this information and tried to make it easier to learn. He did so by arranging the constellations more-or-less in the structure of Greek myth.

Think of a memory palace, an imaginary place in your mind where you put images, concepts, names... to make them easier to recall. In these five VM pages, the memory palace is the narrative structure, and the matter to be memorized relates to the constellations.

Because what we get is a blend between story and constellation, neither is a perfect match. There are no constellations raping each other. It's an exercise of balance.

Either way, I wouldn't call all nymphy interactions peaceful and harmonious.

[Image: callisto2.jpg?w=616]

I think the water in these five folios represents the horizontal circles on the celestial sphere: the Tropics, equator, poles. When a nymph's hand touches water, it means the constellation's hand crosses a circle. If a nymph is half submerged, it means the constellation is crossed by the circle around the waist. And so on.

This isn't too unusual: the position of constellations was often determined by reference to the circles.

In my most recent blog posts, I've started comparing the nymphs to the constellations on the Farnese Atlas, just as an initial exploration. This is how it works:
[Image: perseus.jpg?w=616]

The full post with more examples is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Depending on how much time I find today, I'm posting more of them soon.

Vviews:

I have at one point proposed that the whole bathy section illustrates the Metamorphoses, but that is not a view I have entertained for very long. On May 15 I replied to a question of yours on Bax's site that I think the truth is way more complex, in summary:

Quote:I did consider the possibility of a mere illustrated metamorphoses for a while, but have abandoned that again. I strongly suspect the metamorphoses scenes are not the main purpose of the text.

I have noticed that all myths I have found so far, relate to navigation or naval voyages in general. ....

So there’s a definite theme to the material, which is one of the several reasons why I think it’s likely the text is not *just* Ovid.

Another is that the labels don’t match the names of the characters, and indeed on some folios the characters aren’t labelled at all.

Also, why is the narrative “thread” represented by tubes and flows of water and “lakes” and so on?

I’ll just say that I don’t know the answer to that question right now. I prefer to see it, at the moment, as matter that for some reason has been “enriched” with a visual mythological narrative.

I am quite confident about my analyses of the narrative structure, but there are still plenty of things to be clarified…

So now I have come to a better understanding of why the Ovidian narrative has been loosely overlayed on some of the nymphs: it's to help the intended audience memorize the constellations.

RE: f80r top nymphs - Davidsch - 30-05-2016

Ah, always by accident, this image:

[Image: 1.jpg?w=340&h=457&crop=1]

looks like people dancing

if you saw "dansefrise fra Orslve Kirke" year 1325, Murals from Ørslev Church on Zealand, which is a well-known Danish medieval image.
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RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 30-05-2016

Judging by their clothing, the Voynich image must depict the summer version.

Does this mean you take the entire scene relatively literal? Like a feast or something? How do you explain the other images on the page in your posited context?

RE: f80r top nymphs - Davidsch - 31-05-2016

Hi Koen, the wind can blow from left or right as you know in steenkoal english...this means with the VMS we can go every way we want.

If she wears no top in the VMS, it is probably very hot and a long skirt is not necessary. However in Zealand it can become quite cold...
Currently i am in the process of an decryption effort on the labels; what would really help is a page of all pictures and labels together. Tongue

RE: f80r top nymphs - Wladimir D - 18-09-2016

For information. Alternatively, I do not insist.
To me came to visit, son with his wife. They are medics. I decided to test them on the Q13. Their interpretation of the figure 76v coincided with my own, which I have not yet published.
Figure 1 shows the female uterus.
Next is the fork in the road. What is a a subject that Cohen calls a "spindle"? And if it is the spindle, then why it a number of dark dots (holes)?
The first assumption. This thing is a tool for termination of pregnancy. Is something similar to a vacuum pump. For this procedure a big help - a warm bath!
The second assumption - a procedure an inverse to the first assumption, and it follows from what I wrote earlier on site Nick :
The manuscript is written in Abgal (Oannes). I have 6 circumstantial evidence.
Returning to page 79v. I think the top two drawings should be considered together. On the upper figure female holds a symbol of masculinity. The next - female. Together they form the astronomical symbol of the Earth (mankind). It is very similar to the Egyptian ANKH symbol (consonant with the name of the god Enki). All the same page is an interpretation of the Sumerian epic "Enki and Nimni" about the creation of man. With the help of genetic engineering have made crossbreeding Homo erectus with people-fish. As a result of it a hybrid lost tail. (bottom picture).

This thing is a "syringe" for artificial insemination.