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+--- Thread: Opinions on: line as a functional unit (/thread-5021.html)
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - Kaybo - 10-11-2025
(10-11-2025, 02:55 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We don't have anything comparable to the VM.
But we can get hints what it could be if we look at the special feature, that it is not a continues text.
A simple (not very good) question about text that start lines with similar words to Chatgpt revealed that:
1. Alliterative Revival poetry (England, c. 1360–1400)
These poems use the line as a fixed metrical block.
Words with the main alliteration nearly always appear at the start of the line or the half-line, because the poetic grammar demands it.
Examples:
- “Piers Plowman” (William Langland, late 14th century)
- “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight” (c. 1375–1400)
- “Pearl,” “Patience,” “Cleanness” (Pearl-poet)
Key stressed words often appear at the beginning of the metrical unit, and scribes preserve line integrity very strictly.
2. Acrostic and abecedarian poems (prevalent 13th–15th c.)
These are poems where line-initial letters form words, names, or sequences (A-B-C, or a prayer acrostic).
The line start is functionally constrained because the writer needs the initial letters to obey the pattern.
Examples around 1400:
- Many Middle English devotional poems include acrostics (e.g., names of Mary).
- French love poems sometimes embed the beloved’s name via acrostic.
- German Minnesang late manuscripts sometimes include acrostic dedications.
- Liturgical Latin hymns in manuscripts from this period continue the abecedarian tradition (e.g., “Abecedaria in laudem Mariae”).
3. Italian and Occitan lyric traditions (late medieval copies)
In many lyric forms (ballate, laude, canzoni), line-initial positions carry repeated refrain words or repeated syntactic anchors.
Examples (not strictly 1400 but circulating in manuscripts of that era):
- Dante’s “Vita Nuova” poems in Trecento manuscripts
- Petrarch’s “Canzoniere” (completed 1374, widely copied through 1400)
- Occitan troubadour poems in late medieval codices (where repeated first-word patterns define stanza structure)
4. Middle High German verse tradition (still copied around 1400)
German manuscripts often preserve strophic forms with rigid line openings.
Examples:
- “Der Stricker” (13th c., but heavily recopied ca. 1400)
- Mystical verse (e.g., poems of Heinrich Seuse)
- Meisterlieder precursors with fixed line openings for rhyme and meter
5. Hebrew liturgical poetry (piyyutim)
Common around 900–1500, many piyyutim use acrostic forms, including author signatures or alphabetic patterns.
These strongly constrain line-initial letters.
Manuscripts around 1400 (Ashkenazi and Sephardi) frequently include such poems.
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - JoJo_Jost - 10-11-2025
(10-11-2025, 05:38 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
While I still believe in that theory, I am back because I think that I can still have some things I can contribute, even if that theory is correct. And there are a thing or two that I can try that could prove it -- even without actually "deciphering" it.
I understand you. But I don't want to give up hope that there might be another solution. And I know why I don't want to. It would be such a pitty to have to give up such a wonderful hobby
.I also have another theory about word length distribution in Voynich: I believe that the random placement of spaces is part of a simple ‘encryption’ technique. But there is another reason for this too:
I tried to translate Latin recipes from the Middle Ages into Voynichese to see if it was even possible (it is). I noticed the following: if the Gallow glyphs represent words, and I assume they do for several reasons, you don't just leave them as individual glyphs. That would be too conspicuous. You add other glyphs and the space structure dissolves.
And now comes the crazy part: if you give in to this, the human mind will automatically choose a relatively homogeneous word length. The result is a rhythmic and similar length distribution. However, this would have to be empirically investigated with a group of people to see if this really happens to everyone, or just to me.
But since the Gallow Glyphs also have to be letters, especially to write problematic words that cannot be abbreviated very well (names, etc.), there must also be a few outliers in length. And, of course, there must also be short words and single letters to make it clear that these few glyphs represent a specific short word. But the typeface remains very homogeneous.
But of course, that's too nothing more than another theory...
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - Kaybo - 10-11-2025
(10-11-2025, 03:01 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(10-11-2025, 02:04 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ok, but then it was no secret at all? Do you looked at the full text to find more similarities? Or is that a general theme that other maybe used too and we maybe have to find a topic that need to kept secret?
It seems that there were also poems (in hexameters) that were very critical of physicians (see the addendum in the last post). It would certainly be a serious matter to potentially fall out with one's own guild. However, I do not know how common or widespread poems of this kind were.
As far as hexameters themselves are concerned, at first glance the lines in the VMS often seem too long to me ( too many words ). However, I would not rely on the spaces set.
Do you think it must be hexameters. I just thought, ok herbal, medical stuff is written as poetry... so maybe line as a functional unit is not very uncommon in a lot of text at that time?
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - bi3mw - 10-11-2025
(10-11-2025, 07:13 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you think it must be hexameters. I just thought, ok herbal, medical stuff is written as poetry... so maybe line as a functional unit is not very uncommon in a lot of text at that time?
As far as I know, hexameters were the most widely used verse form in ancient and medieval poetry. I find it very interesting that there is evidence of their use in medical/herbal texts. So far, I have not understood much about the construction of such verses other than that there are short and long units according to the pattern:
Quote:The characteristic rhythm of dactylic hexameter is DUM diddy DUM diddy DUM diddy DUM diddy DUM diddy DUM DUM.
A purely dactylic line of hexameter would look like this: — uu | — uu | — uu | — uu | — uu | — x
In any case, one could speak of a line as a functional unit. Whether or not the VMS has a six-fold recurring meter, as one would expect in metrical poetry, would have to be examined in detail. As I said before, the lines here seem rather long to me, but I could be wrong.
By the way, I'm reading Elmar Vogt's paper again. I've already forgotten half of it
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RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - bi3mw - 11-11-2025
The crucial problem in checking whether parts of the VMS were written in hexameters or not is syllable recognition. It is impossible to say which parts of words represent syllables. I have tried to break down the VMS into syllables (according to their frequency of occurrence). However, this is still a work in progress.
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RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025
(11-11-2025, 02:33 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have tried to break down the VMS into syllables (according to their frequency of occurrence). However, this is still a work in progress.
Is that similar to my old word paradigm?
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - bi3mw - 11-11-2025
(11-11-2025, 04:09 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is that similar to my old word paradigm?
No, the table is part of an interactive heatmap that visualizes recurring patterns in the Voynich Manuscript ( based on frequency of occurrence ).
See here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025
(11-11-2025, 04:22 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.the table is part of an interactive heatmap that visualizes recurring patterns in the Voynich Manuscript ( based on frequency of occurrence ). See here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thanks!
So your syllable sets are
First: {Ch, Che, Sh, She, ot, ok, yt, yk, qot, qok, ote, oke, ota, oka, qoke, qoka, qokee, qo, ol, Cho, Sho, Cheo, da, dai, ai, ...}
Second: { ty, ky, hy, hey, hedy, hdy, hol, eey, Chy, eol, eo, ey, eedy, ir, or, ol, ar, al, in, iin, ain, aiin, dy, ody, edy, ... }
I don't understand why you have second syllables starting with "h", since "h" is almost always attached to a previous C, S, I, CT, or CK -- and you don't have any first syllables that end with these combinations. In fact your table lists 22 occurrences of cheo+hy -- what does this mean?
Excluding the "circles" {a,o,y}, and the initial "q", which in my model are treated separately, your syllables would be
First: { Ch, Che, Sh, She, t, k, te, ke, kee l, d, di, i ...}
Second: { t, k, h, he, hed, hd, hl, ee, Ch, el eed, r, l, in, iin, d, ed ...}
The t,k in the second syllable come ony from ty and ky, which I would leave as part of the first syllable. Likewise the "i" in the first syllable set could be treated as part of the second syllable. That would leave something like
First: { Ch, Che, Sh, She, t, k, te, ke, kee, l, d ...}
Second: { e, ee, ed, d, l, r, Ch, in, iin, ...}
Using the glyph classes from my table, they would reduce to
First: { X, H, D }
Second: { X, D, N }
Then this would be very distantly similar to my model [ D^d X^x H^h ] [ X^z D^w N^n ] where d,x,h,z,n are 0 or 1, and w is 0, 1,or 2. Namely your first syllable would span the first bracket pair, my D^d X^x H^h, and the second syllable would span the second bracket, my X^Z D^w N^n.
But maybe there is a better scheme than both, which better accounts for words where w = 2 without allowing too many "invalid" words...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - bi3mw - 11-11-2025
Hello Jorge,
Thank you for your feedback. I checked cheo/hy again and couldn't find any errors. As I said, the combinations are generated purely on the basis of frequency and are not “handmade.”
RE: Opinions on: line as a functional unit - Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025
(11-11-2025, 06:02 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you for your feedback. I checked cheo/hy again and couldn't find any errors. As I said, the combinations are generated purely on the basis of frequency and are not “handmade.”
Sorry for missing that point. Do you mean that the first and second syllables together may not comprise the whole word? That is, they may leave some glyphs in the middle? Or even overlap?
All the best, --stolfi