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+--- Thread: A new Theory about Voynich MS (/thread-2876.html)
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - RenegadeHealer - 20-09-2019
(30-08-2019, 11:34 AM)Gavin Güldenpfennig Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The latest video was very interesting. I think, you could be right with your theory, that the star constellations are shown in the balneological section. If you're right, it is also possible, that the plant drawings have direct connections to the stars.
...
But you're maybe wrong with the tropical VMS origin. During the Roman Empire, the Southern Cross was also visible from southern Spain and Crete for example. So it could even fit my theory, but not only that. As far as I could say, the water-gives-life-mythology seems to have some parallels with the story of the Celtic goddess Sirona. And look to Lascaux. Astronomy was also a very known field of Science even by the descendants of the Celts and the Pre-Indo-Europeans.
I'm probably just out of the loop, but I wasn't able to find a link to raven's most recent (and very intriguing!) video; I had to follow a link from the now-deleted video, go to his YouTube profile, and find the new video Gavin is referring to there. So in case anyone else is having the same problem, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
@raven, I recommend you have a native English speaker proofread your text and dialogue. I understand your points very clearly, but your word usage is odd at times, and may be a barrier to your ideas being taken seriously. I love to write, and friends and family always bring me their essays to look over. I wish to volunteer my services to you for this in the future. Also, while we're on the subject, I do a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and have some voice acting experience. I would be happy to narrate your videos in English. I am willing to help you with both of these things free of charge, because I think your idea deserves more exposure. I've entertained a lot of half-baked Voynich theories, and this one stands out from the crowd.
The biggest problem with the VMS is, to date, is its poverty of context. Philosopher Jacques LaCan and his poststructuralists would consider the VMS a true masterpiece. LaCan argued that a work's internal connections — the way its sub-parts fit together with and refer to each other — is a far more important determiner of artistic merit than the work's external connections to other pieces of culture. This is the "elegant" part of the enigma that Mary D'Imperio refers to. The "enigma" part refers to the fact that despite this complicated system of self-reference and internal consistency in both text and pictures (which raven's theory also sheds a lot of light on), no one has been reliably able to link any piece of content in the VMS to any external context. Raven's theory gives me some serious hope that this book might be able to be linked to other people and things at the time of its composition.
The cliffhanger at the end, where raven holds back from naming the culture he thinks is responsible for creating the VMS's content, was frustrating but understandable. After watching the video, I pulled up a world map and highlighted the band of latitudes between 30 degrees north and 30 degrees south, and thinking about cultures within that zone in the middle ages. I must say, I lost a bit of that "we're hot on the trail!" feeling looking at the possibilities this left us with. I drew a line with my finger going through Ethiopia, Saba in the southern Arabian penninsula, the estuaries of the Tigris and Euphrates where the Mandaeans settled, the southern coast of Persia, and finally into Gujarat and the Punjab. I plan on doing some reading about the indigenous pre-Abrahamic cosmologies and creation myths of all of these places, as I could believe any of these places were the origin of the story the VMS tells, and possibly the homeland of the author.
I thought to extend this line of possibilities all the way through Bengal and down through Penninsular Southeast Asia, Borneo, Java, the Nusa Tenggara archipelago. I thought about Australian Aborigines and their Dreamtime myths before my credibility was stretched too thin and broke, and I ended the line of possibilities in central India at one end, and Ethiopia on the other. Also, I'm just not seeing any New World civilizations being an influence on this book in the early 1400s.
One thing that threw me off was the initial references to Shamanism, which had me thinking about the nomadic herders of the Central Eurasian steppe. I have to say I always considered a more northernly belt of possible candidates for the source culture of the VMS, starting in the Balkan peninsula, then east in the direction of the Silk Road, through Asia minor, the Caucasus, northern Syria, Persia, Altay and the area around Barnaúl, and ending in Xinjiang where the Tocharians used to live. (No, I'm not going to get either the Basques or the Ainu involved in this. I haven't gone that far off the deep end! However, I will point out that my belt of candidate places does include the homelands of the genetically and culturally mysterious Kalash people, and the linguistically mysterious Burushaski people.)
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - -JKP- - 20-09-2019
Quote:RenegadeHealer wrote: No, I'm not going to get either the Basques or the Ainu involved in this. I haven't gone that far off the deep end!
Haha, I have considered the Basques as a possible source of the VMS for a number of reasons:
- They held on to their Pagan culture much longer than most places, despite the attempts of their oppressors to Catholicize them, and thus might embue a manuscript with a generous dose of water and naked nymphs.
- They resisted cultural absorption by their larger neighbors.
- They have an old and unique language that bears little resemblance to that of its neighbors and appears to predate the split into Caucasus languages and to have gone in its own direction.
- They used a numeric system common to the trades, which is vaguely runic in appearance and also resembles Greek acrophonic numerals, in the sense that it uses stacking in a logical way to denote quantity (in other words, the idea of "benching" a glyph was part of their consciousness).
- They were close enough to major powers to have been influenced by literacy, yet far enough up in the mountains to keep many of their own traditions, which might result in something sort of recognizable but also sort of odd like the Voynich Manuscript.
- Basque whalers were astonishing seafarers. They made regular trips to Iceland to go after whales in the northmost waters and visited it so often they learned a kind of pidgin Icelandic. Their ancient oral history includes tales about lands west of Iceland, possibly the New World.
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - RenegadeHealer - 20-09-2019
(20-09-2019, 01:19 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.IMO there are a lot of reasons to consider the Basques.
I stand corrected.
I recall some discussions of the moribund Erromintxela language and culture (culturally Basque Romani / Sinti) with reference to Stephen Bax's theory on a Romani connection, either here on on Stephen Bax's blog. I see a parallel also with southern rural Japan's crypto-Christians, who've passed down an exclusively oral gospel in secret since Tokugawa Ieyasu's expulsion of the Portuguese, closing the borders, and banning of Christianity. The gospel story has become retold and filtered through far-flug cultural lenses without correction from source materials for so long, that the story is barely recognizable. (In it Virgin Mary is from the Philippines, for one thing. Jesus made it to Japan and is still buried there, also.) I also recall my Jewish wife's "uncanny valley" reaction to videos of Jamaican members of the RastafarI faith talking about their beliefs. The symbols and references were clearly of Jewish origin, but only superficially understood and used to mean different things than she was used to. My point is, I agree that the Basques and other peripheral peoples of medieval Europe could definitely have received great wisdom from lands far away, but put very much their own spin on it, such that the traces of its origins are incompletely preserved.
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - -JKP- - 20-09-2019
Quote:RenegadeHealer: ...with reference to Stephen Bax's theory on a Romani connection...
I could be mistaken about details, it was almost six years ago, but I believe that Sukhwant Singh discussed eastern connections before Stephen Bax and, in fact, disagreed with some of Stephen Bax's "factual" statements. I'm not qualified to judge who was right or wrong, but Sukhwant Singh has a deeper background in Indian languages and culture than Bax.
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 20-09-2019
For me the mythology of the manuscript is less interesting than the script, at least for analyzing purposes. But what I can say is, that their are Indic influences to the manuscript. For example the drawing of page 68r3 was also found in an Indian temple. And also the references to the bull (page 57v) as the beginner of the year, seem to come from India. But there are also Arabic and Persian influences in it, so I would say, that Bax and Singh both are experts you can go with.
The Romani Language as far as we knew it today seems to be a result of an ongoing creolization. Its development begins in Southern India, leading through long phases of settlement in the Kushan Empire and some Arabic kingdoms over the Ottoman Empire, ending in different not only European countries. There most common phonetic sound disappeared over the centuries. So we need all experts we can reach, to say anything definitive about Romani.
Concerning the Basques: @raven said that the culture and mythology of the Voynich people were influenced by only two seasons of the year. Both of them, the Basques and the Romani did have only Summer and Winter in their old religions. Also water was important for them. You can see it in their way naming the month.
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - Ahmet Barış Kestel - 23-09-2019
Hello! I'm Raven.
My friend because of my english ı chose to don't write from here or another blog. Or yourube video. Because I inadvertently breaking heart. Now please read this message with knowning this
Firstly ı punblished a book on amazon; "Is the Voynich Manuscript a Mayan codex?". The translater translated to english. I told a lot of thing from my determination in this book. And at the end of the book ı translated first pharagpah of VMS. For being objective ı choosed texts from the first pharagraphs of the subjects.
In the first years ı thought it is a Europen book. For this ı didn't try to solve. You see my english! If it is an Eruope book ı couldn't do anything. Bu you know this book is like a disease... I was tried only reading the pictures or finding similarities. For one year. In this process every week ı looked Rene's blog. I learned all the thing about VMS history from him. Then ı was tried to find an algoritm, a ciphere... Because the text not similar to a language you know. In your and our languages or in europe or middle east languages we build words with letter blocks. Because of this in our languages the letters are generally distributed homogeneously. But in VMS, the words building from the syllable. Such that, as if some letters are only for word heads and others for word breaks. This writings fundamentals are syllables. That made me think about it; it is a chiphere or artificial text. If it is like this, this won't solve!
But think like the writer of VMS, and answer; why? For money? 240 page!!! He could write a little text for 20 paper, and he could draw more fantastic things. We must be sure Rudolph could buy this with same money. (I think; no for you. you can think anything. Don't understand me wrong
) But when ı look vms ı see, he is working to telling something to us. It is not a schizophrenic text. It is soo long for it. This is not a scrapbook; this is a book! Writer has worked for a long time we can see. For being incomprehensible? which author request this? Nobody! He/she tried! But something must be happened, and he didn't success to tell his ideas to us. But what happened? I am not knowing the answer. May be someoe find one day...But overtime ı started to think this is a language! Only we can't reading. There is a lot of researcher, they are/were big scientist, for on today or at the history. They know a lot of manuscript from medieval ages! They knows French, English, German, Latin... They are genius. They found everything! Why they couldn't solve? I understood the second bir question is it! I understood there are something and misleading us. Text is similar to latin, drawing charactesitics is like Europe, that drawing is similar to that book..etc.
I understood that ı must don't look to similarities. May be a person nationalized the book, while copying? All cultures did it in the history! If this book is a copy, and if the copier notionalized it, it is answer everything. For two year ı'm not looking similarities. Only ı'm triying to understand meaning and finding the keys. That video is my starting analyses. But it is not enough to understand. There is a lot of culture near equvator but no one split the waters reource! Or split the sky like this. Maybe ı couldn't find? Maybe it was be on Africa, or Spain..etc. I couldn't find. Then ı collected the keys! Because no unknown text, can't solving without key. Ancient Egypt, Hitit, Orhun stelas...vb. Only one key ı could found can be objective. Then ı started to search this key in World languages! Then found it by chance in Mayan Languages. Then the other, then the other... But I wasn't knowing Mayan Languages (it is so difficult to understand because they didn't speak one language. There are a lot of version!) or Mayan culture. And Mayan writing system wasn't like this. They used glyphs... After 2 year ı saw! İn Mayan archeology especially in Chichen Itza, Yaxchilan there are some marks about the same mythology with VMS. And not only using dictionary, the Mayan grammar is similar to VMS. ...
Now I can say these are Cenotes. They tought the sky like Yucatan. In the book these cenotes name Nab: pool. These womans are Itzas; Water Wizards. In the first page animal symbols from Popol Vuh; Mayan sacred book. Then I learned at the Yucatan, the rain is starting 15 days after see the Crux. The plants for their roots to using Mayan Shamans. For example You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are 3 Itza. I think et the left one is on the cenote which is under the Chichen Itza (kukulkan) pyramyd. At the center ıtza is sitting on the Sacred Cenote. A few kilometer from this. Between the pyramid and the sea. At the right is on the sea: gulf of Mexico. ...etc. The grammar like that. In the plant pages generally using present tense and clouse. At the mythology page generally using past tense....etc. Like Chilam Balam; an old Mayan Shaman book, the sentences always repeating....etc.
But you see! For writing this text ı looked google translate, for words meaning. I'm not knowing ı could tell true or false. Or could ı use the true word for true mening? ... Now an article is translating in English now. I will upload this the academia.edu in this week. It is about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. first pharagraph translating. I can't say anything; ı think I'm reading. But decision belongs to Mayan experts. I hope I will make a contribution to the solution.
Because of it look the Mesoamerica! For english writing help please mail me: a.bariskestel@hotmail.com We can do a lot of thing together. Let's trying with! I will be happy. For everyone...
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - RenegadeHealer - 23-09-2019
(23-09-2019, 02:07 PM)Ahmet Barış Kestel Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Looking forward to reading your book. I'll be in touch.
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - Ger Hungerink - 24-09-2019
I enjoy your animations very much.
It is an alternative way: counter art with art.
However I am afraid you are 10 years late with this theory.
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - Ahmet Barış Kestel - 19-10-2019
My fisrt article was translated to english. I published on academia edu.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
After that, the decision belongs to the Mayan language professionals...
RE: A new Theory about Voynich MS - bi3mw - 05-10-2020
Ahmet Barış KESTEL, 25.09.2020, Is the Voynich Manuscript a Mayan codex ?
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