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+--- Thread: Why and how the text could be Bavarian (/thread-5312.html)
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Aga Tentakulus - 19-09-2026
You lot make everything so complicated.
A simple lesson.
Translate ‘veni, vidi, vici’ into German or English.
Result:
I came, I saw, I conquered.
Ich kam, ich sah, ich siegte.
What’s happening? The ‘i’ (ich) moves from the end to the beginning.
According to German and English grammar, it’s correct for the ‘i’ to be at the front.
Question: Would you still recognise ‘iven, ivid, ivic’ now?
The grammar in German and English isn’t wrong as such, and it also explains why so many words begin with an ‘o’.
Coincidence or strategy?
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 19-09-2026
(19-09-2026, 12:58 PM)ololololo wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Damn graphics...
However, for users, it will be enough to explain the following:
1). What will I get if I don’t turn the text around?
2). Why does Voynichese look so good, given that it’s flipped (I mean rules like CLS)?
Let me be the one who makes your theory clearer to others
In the forward-writing system:
When writing the “sh” in “shedy,” the writer would already have to know that the next word begins with 51 % = “qo.” That is what is peculiar: a glyph in a word “knows” something about its successor. That is strange—a kind of long-range effect.
Words have such connections; the best-known example in English is probably “neither … nor.” Here, when you write “neither,” you know that “nor” is coming. But a glyph within a word shouldn’t have any knowledge of which glyph the next word begins with. And unlike a word-to-word relationship, this strange remote effect between “sh” and “qo” exists in most of all tokens (as I’ve shown in the posts above).
When reading backward:
If you reverse the direction of reading, the dependency is reversed. The word with “qo” now comes before the word with “sh.” The writer has therefore already written “qo” by the time he reaches the “sh.” Consequently, he doesn’t need to know anything in advance; he simply has to look back. This is the normal situation for any writer: what I write next depends on what’s already there. That’s how language works.
The regularity is the same in both directions. What changes is what one must assume in order for it to arise. Moving forward, one needs a writer who, upon encountering the first letter of a word, knows the next word. Moving backward, one needs a writer who remembers what they just wrote. The second model is therefore simply the easier one.
But that’s not the only effect that becomes simpler.
For example, there are the 7 rules that explain/define almost all the spaces in the test. If you define the system as a cipher—since that’s rather unusual for a language—then in the Reva version, these become the first letters of the tokens, and they serve, so to speak, as an entry point into a tabular format that builds logically, step by step, through the entire VMS token. When read forward, this is not nearly as simple, logical, or feasible to follow step by step.
Or, for example, the “qo.” “qo” almost always appears together—in nearly 99% of cases. So when read from the front, it is always a single unit—an atom.
When read backward, many words end in “o” and “oq”—here, the “q” is simply a possible extension of the “o” ending, and thus no longer a fixed unit. This, too, is the simpler interpretation.
These are the reasons why reading it backward “simplifies” some of the VMS statistics. This is NOT proof, without a doubt. But it is a clue.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 19-09-2026
(19-09-2026, 02:27 PM)DG97EEB wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not sure where to land this, so putting it here .. a German project on Geheimschrift. I've not had a chance to scan it all yet, but something tells me it might prove useful.... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I can only find a description of the project, but it seems to be completed. However, I can't find a way to access the project's content??? Do you have one?
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Aga Tentakulus - 19-09-2026
Zu Deiner bayrischen Theorie.
Das 191. Oktoberfest in München ist eröffnet.
Nicht Lot, sondern Maas heist die Devise.
Regarding your Bavarian theory.
The 191st Oktoberfest in Munich has opened.
The motto is ‘Maas’, not ‘Lot’.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 20-09-2026
(19-09-2026, 03:15 PM)Aga Tentakulus wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You lot make everything so complicated.
A simple lesson.
Translate ‘veni, vidi, vici’ into German or English.
Result:
I came, I saw, I conquered.
Ich kam, ich sah, ich siegte.
What’s happening? The ‘i’ (ich) moves from the end to the beginning.
According to German and English grammar, it’s correct for the ‘i’ to be at the front.
Question: Would you still recognise ‘iven, ivid, ivic’ now?
The grammar in German and English isn’t wrong as such, and it also explains why so many words begin with an ‘o’.
Coincidence or strategy?
@ Aga, did you actually understand what this example is about?
Where in Latin or German does a letter or a cluster of letters in a word—and I mean in nearly all the words in which it appears (!)—indicate anything about how the next word begins???
Your example is something completely different and has NOTHING to do with what I’m writing about.
@ Aga Hast du eigentlich verstanden, worum es bei dem Beispiel geht?
Wo im lateinischen oder deutschen, sagt ein Buchstabe oder ein Cluster in einem Wort, und zwar in nahezu allen Wörtern, in denen es auftaucht (!), etwas darüber aus, wie das nächste Wort anfängt???
Dein Beispiel ist was völlig anderes und hat NICHTS mit dem zu tun, worüber ich schreibe.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 20-09-2026
AIIN und Reva
Oh, there was one more point I’d completely forgotten—why Reva makes more sense than Eva.
Anyone who’s worked on deciphering knows the problem with “aiin”— aiin ist mostyl at the end of a token. Now, when I write, I need to know in advance what “aiin” is - ain aiin etc. whether I should treat “aiin” as a single atom, or as “ai in,” or as “a iin in,” and so on. I need to know right at the beginning of the token what kind of “aiin” I’m using.
Since “aiin” occurs so frequently, it’s often treated simply as a fixed unit; sometimes this also applies to “daiin.”
As a result, there have been countless attempts to classify “aiin” and “daiin” as words.
It’s much easier when read backward.
Here, the frequency is “niia,” and it usually appears at the beginning of a token.
Now I don't need to know anything else about the Aiin while I'm writing. It’s enough to view “N” as one of the four main entry points for the families (token) (y, n, r, l), and then whatever follows can follow:
na
nia
niia
niiia
And then other glyphs, such as “d.”
So niiad. Structurally, it’s all very clean and built upon one another.
And even the rarer forms (whose spelling is uncertain)—oin and oiin—cease to be a problem.
N remains the starting point,
then comes
no
nio
niio
and then other glyphs follow.
It is only a decision a / o...
That’s the fascinating thing about reading backward: Many of the complicated clusters and tokens dissolve into a very simple, sequentially structured system.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Grove - 20-09-2026
I don’t have a problem with reverse readings per se, but I don’t get why you feel it’s easier than reading forward. Aiin or Niia are exactly the same as far as parsing choices go. Ai in , a ii n, or ni in, n ii a.
It’s clear that the e and I families exist with zero to four repetitions before a final ligature regardless which direction you read it in.
The e and I aren’t stand alone characters. Let’s say that each I or e simply indicate an addition or subtraction from the final character. Say n actually is an n, but in is actually m, iin is L, iiin is k.
Of course they could be part of a column row table with the number of i’s as the rows pointing to a single character, digraph or syllable… who knows?
I just don’t get the Reva being easier.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 20-09-2026
(20-09-2026, 01:19 PM)Grove wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don’t have a problem with reverse readings per se, but I don’t get why you feel it’s easier than reading forward. Aiin or Niia are exactly the same as far as parsing choices go. Ai in , a ii n, or ni in, n ii a.
It’s clear that the e and I families exist with zero to four repetitions before a final ligature regardless which direction you read it in.
The e and I aren’t stand alone characters. Let’s say that each I or e simply indicate an addition or subtraction from the final character. Say n actually is an n, but in is actually m, iin is L, iiin is k.
Of course they could be part of a column row table with the number of i’s as the rows pointing to a single character, digraph or syllable… who knows?
I just don’t get the Reva being easier.
I know this is hard to understand, because, of course, you’re right from a logical standpoint.
Maybe put it this way: you start with many glyphs in “Eva,” and they all end with one of four different glyphs—y, n, r, or l—which covers 87% of all token endings. With “aiin,” for example, you might ask yourself, why do you even need to write the “n” in the last place? It just follows naturally.
The second point is, that they have so many different and unstructured beginnings in their cipher, all of which have to center around a single letter.
That’s “unusual”—
In Reva, the next glyph develops from each one with just one or two decisions, which corresponds to a normal structure, from simple to complex. The “n” from aiin is the description of the niia family here, and that’s where it becomes important.
But later on, I’ll publish the complete structure of the VMS from Reva’s perspective; then you’ll see how uniform everything suddenly becomes. And at least for me, I’ve never been able to figure it out that clearly—and logically—moving forward.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - Aga Tentakulus - 20-09-2026
(20-09-2026, 05:30 AM)JoJo_Jost wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ Aga, did you actually understand what this example is about?
No.
Do I really have to? When I know that ‘qo’ isn’t an atom, and that people can’t tell the difference between a 4 and a q.
I also know that ‘q9’ actually means ‘quum’ in Latin, which is the old form of ‘cum’.
But never mind that – how does your explanation help me with Bavarian?
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 20-09-2026
The Structure of the VMS
(when read backward)
Here, one can now see the modular system of the VMS cipher, which is, in a sense, highly structured. However, in my opinion, this structure becomes apparent only in the Reva reading, because it is precisely this structure that can now be recognized as moving from few to many—a structure that, when viewed the other way around, is not recognizable due to the many different entry points into the token and thus into the cipher.
This structural overview of token entry covers nearly 90 percent of all tokens.