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+--- Thread: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 (/thread-846.html)
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - EllieV - 15-10-2016
(15-10-2016, 05:23 PM)CarlL Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think Baresch is submitting a document which is written in Czech and states the area of his nativity.
I also see other records for individuals that mention Niemeczkem (german) and Latinskym (latin). Their submitted documents must be written in either german or latin.
Thanks, Carl. I agree.
Some of the entries from earlier years are in different handwriting and are easier to read.
I'm afraid I reached the end of my abilities to speculate in Czech
Please let us know as you make progress with the translation. All the best! Ellie
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - GregS - 23-10-2016
(11-10-2016, 03:47 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(11-10-2016, 03:15 PM)CarlL Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To me it appears to be from "The burgher rights book". Burgher: a citizen of a town or city, typically a member of the wealthy bourgeoisie.
My transcription/translation of the first line listed below.
M. Girzi Baress, przedloziw Listi na Pargkameni w Jazyku Czieskem (transcription/old Czech)
Mistr Jiří Bareš, předloziv Listi na Pergamen v Jazyku Českém (modern Czech)
Master Georg Baresch, Letter transferred to parchment in the Czech Language
Hi Carl. I don't speak Czech, but the word předloziv seems similar to Russian предложить. It would mean that Bares offered something (either in the sense of 'he gave something' or 'he suggested something'). Without the other lines (and without knowledge of Czech) I would guess: "Bares offered that the sheets of parchment in Czech language...(to be continued)".
Hi Carl, Ellie. More specifically, he is presenting, 'před-' is 'before', -ložit' is 'to place', so 'to place before (someone)', cognate with the Polish 'przedłożyć'. It is used to describe presenting documents for official scrutiny, in this case letters on parchment and in Czech, presumably letters certifying his birth, good upbringing etc (i.e. letters of recommendation).
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - GregS - 23-10-2016
EllieV
Quote:Few more words. Nabozen = religious (I think the word catholic is nearby) . Powoleno=permited. Den=day. W='modern
I think the word is split onto the next line, Nabozen|stwa Katolickiego (Polish spelling but that will be close enough for the period), i.e. Catholic mass or worship, the next word seems to be 'od' i.e. 'from' and a pair of names, possibly priests?
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - GregS - 23-10-2016
(14-10-2016, 03:25 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could the first word of the second line be 'swedzenj' - similar to Polish "swedzenie" and Russian "Сведение" = information?
The first symbol of the word is used in combination with S at the year number to form Czech Š (sh) - so I am guessing it is some kind of hushing sound
I think the Polish "stwierdzenie" (statement) rather than "swedzenie" (itch).
"a wniem" would be in modern Polish(*) rendered as "a w nim", "and in it", i.e. the whole would be "and in them [the letters] ... a statement of where he was born, his good upbringing [uchowanie]" etc.
*Polish and Czech are still close, particularly in the border region, but were much closer in the 17th C. In places this text seems to be written more in Polish than Czech.
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - EllieV - 23-10-2016
(23-10-2016, 02:54 PM)GregS Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.*Polish and Czech are still close, particularly in the border region, but were much closer in the 17th C. In places this text seems to be written more in Polish than Czech.
I think this is due to similarity with Old Church Slavonic. I agree that wniem means 'in it' - sound also like Russian "в нём"
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - CarlL - 23-10-2016
(14-10-2016, 04:30 PM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is what I got so far:
.... prjedlozine listy na pargkamenie ne jazigki czieskem, a wniem ...
swedzenj gehi jadneho na swiet zrozeni, .... dobreho ehowani, a fo-
lii .... od vrozeneho p. p. otty z opprstorfi zdibi a ....
...na cziastalowiczji.., tynisti, priestawlczyeh a ...
datt? (datum) na cziastalowizyh w ... den pamatny swatjih fabi-
na sebestyana letha od narozeni crysta pana sestnaztistoho
sestnazteho .... nie ho gest gemi .......nabozen-
stwi catholizkeho od ....
.............................. ziwno-
sti miestskych powoleno.... se za nieho postawili lo-
rentz .... i caspar pnigman...
This is the example for 'ziwnosti miestskych'
[quote pid='7421' dateline='1476459050']
.... prjedlozine listy na pargkamenie ne jazigki czieskem, a wniem ...
swedzenj gehi jadneho na swiet zrozeni, .
I think (it could be wishful thinking) that means that Baresch offered sheets of parchment not in Czech language, but containing information that is unique to this world.
[/quote]
I believe the end of line 2 and beginning of line 3 are:
...chowani a spo-
lu y weyhostni od Vrozneho P.P. Otty ...
See images 592 and 600 for example.
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - EllieV - 24-10-2016
Does this look any better?
.... prjedlozine listy na pargkamenie w jazigku czieskem, a wniem ...
swedzenj geho jadneho na swiet zrozeni, .... dobreho chowani, a spo-
lu y weyhostni od vrozeneho p. p. otty z opprstorfi zdubu a ....
...na cziastalowiczji.., tynisti, priestawlczyeh a ...
datem na cziastalowizyh w strjedu den pamatny swatjih fabi-
na sebestyana letha od narozeni Krysta pana sestnaztistoho
sestnazteho .... nie ho gest gemi .......nabozen-
stwi katholizkeho od ....
.............................. ziwno-
sti miestskych powoleno.... se za nieho postawili lo-
rentz .... i Kasspar ...
RE: Georg Baresch - Prague 1624 - CarlL - 24-10-2016
(24-10-2016, 01:23 AM)EllieV Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does this look any better?
.... prjedlozine listy na pargkamenie w jazigku czieskem, a wniem ...
swedzenj geho jadneho na swiet zrozeni, .... dobreho chowani, a spo-
lu y weyhostni od vrozeneho p. p. otty z opprstorfi zdubu a ....
...na cziastalowiczji.., tynisti, priestawlczyeh a ...
datem na cziastalowizyh w strjedu den pamatny swatjih fabi-
na sebestyana letha od narozeni Krysta pana sestnaztistoho
sestnazteho .... nie ho gest gemi .......nabozen-
stwi katholizkeho od ....
.............................. ziwno-
sti miestskych powoleno.... se za nieho postawili lo-
rentz .... i Kasspar ...
Yes