+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion (/thread-5874.html)
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Pierre Dumont Himself - 15-08-2026
Two more manuscripts from the scriptorium of Alfonso X:
Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana Reg.lat.1283 - Libro de astromagia:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BH MSS 156 - Libros del saber de astronomía:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Described here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
No other zodiacs in this library according to the catalogue, except one with symbols on the wheel instead of images.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There may be some among the printed books. One example:
BH INC M-10 Compost et kalendrier des bergères.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Pierre Dumont Himself - 17-08-2026
Basilica di San Savino, Piacenza: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quite a few zodiacs here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Zodiac at Amiens: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Zodiac at Notre-Dame de Paris: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Another zodiac in Chartres: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A few more zodiacs here (not all depicted): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Ganagobie: Sagittarius with Pisces: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A lot of zodiacs here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Lyon. Bibliothèque municipale, Ms 172
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Pierre Dumont Himself - 27-08-2026
An unusual Sagittarius and Pisces, Chiesa di San Pietro, Tuscania (archivolto)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Palazzo Orsini di PITIGLIANO - two zodiacs (early 16th century)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Castello ducale Orsini di Fiano Romano, Sala dello Zodiaco. 1493.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Chagcharan - 02-09-2026
(30-07-2026, 10:29 PM)Koen G wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For our Zodiac efforts, it might be worthwhile if anyone is able to expand the geographical scope a little bit to digitization deserts that may have had many relevant manuscripts. Czechia, Poland... Maybe Spain, though I'm not sure. Maybe more parts of Italy? Currently there is a huge dominance of German and French manuscripts, but for all we know the MS was made in Italy or even Prague. Currently the best Virgo is from a 1400-1410 MS from Prague, so this may be fertile ground if similar MSS can be found.
I'd love to. I'm based in Prague and have been scanning through local manuscripts quite a bit lately, looking at zodiacs and other drawings. Quite a few of them do have a voynich-like quality to them. I'm not great at reading latin, though I can read old czech, of which there is also quite an extensive corpus of texts. My german is semi-decent.
That said, I'm not very well versed in the current state of research here in this thread/forum, so if anyone could direct me to how I could be best of help, that would be great.
I've got bookmarks of all the interesting stuff I've found, mostly from digitised manuscripts on manuscriptorium.com - a portal developed by the Czech National Library and the primary place for digitized manuscripts from around here. The majority of unique medieval manuscripts have already been digitised, though some remain.
For context, I'm a PhD student of history and anthropology, specializing mostly in 18-19. century artisans. This is a side hobby
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Koen G - 02-09-2026
Thanks for your interest, this would be great!
The Zodiac project is still a work in progress. Eggyk has been doing a herculean amount of work by rating over 400 sequences so far. But the composition of the sample is guided by availability. France and Germany produced a lot of manuscripts, and their online repositories are very accessible. This is roughly the current composition (skipping over singleton entries like one Poland):
France 186
Germany 126
Italy 33
England 19
Austria 12
Switz 12
Spain 12
Belgium 11
Czechia 6
The values aren't exact, but they indicate well how the corpus is currently divided. So any additional Zodiac sequences from underrepresented areas might do well to round out the geographical balance. I'm thinking specifically of areas like Czechia because the few entries we have are often good.
If you check the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., on the image categorization tab, you can see which manuscripts have been included already and also which ones Eggy checked but turned out to not have any images.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - eggyk - 02-09-2026
(02-09-2026, 01:37 PM)Chagcharan wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'd love to. I'm based in Prague and have been scanning through local manuscripts quite a bit lately, looking at zodiacs and other drawings. Quite a few of them do have a voynich-like quality to them. I'm not great at reading latin, though I can read old czech, of which there is also quite an extensive corpus of texts. My german is semi-decent.
That said, I'm not very well versed in the current state of research here in this thread/forum, so if anyone could direct me to how I could be best of help, that would be great.
I've got bookmarks of all the interesting stuff I've found, mostly from digitised manuscripts on manuscriptorium.com - a portal developed by the Czech National Library and the primary place for digitized manuscripts from around here. The majority of unique medieval manuscripts have already been digitised, though some remain.
For context, I'm a PhD student of history and anthropology, specializing mostly in 18-19. century artisans. This is a side hobby
Czechia is a huge blind spot where new entries would be really really valuable. I believe there is only 1 direct manuscriptorium link on there (the blue hatted virgo from prague) so basically everything is likely to be new right now.
Currently, the state of research (for this effort specifically) is a collection of ~400 sources so far as mentioned by Koen above. Every zodiac sign within each source is listed into the relevant spreadsheet and then rated based on a certain set of criteria for the primary purpose of comparison to the VMS. Currently, these criteria are mostly set, but they are still being tweaked occasionally based on new or unexpected things that we are still finding. However, most of the current focus is bulking out the overall sample size in order to start making meaningful observations for both individual signs and overall sequences. (like which VMS-like properties were most common, and where/when)
Two threads dedicated to a sign have been made so far: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Any particularly interesting examples of those signs would be great to see there too. More threads for other signs will be coming at some point, with the next likely being based on which set of zodiac signs seems the most interesting to discuss based on the examples found so far. For example, scorpio and gemini have some great entries will be worth discussing eventually. The main reason i've held off making another specific thread is because every contribution in each thread turns into an entire manuscript source and it would simply be too much to handle.
So I want to start that up once the vast bulk of low hanging entries are added and sorted. For the purposes of analysis -and to remove bias where possible- I take all sources of zodiac imagery, including ones not deemed particularly interesting. But if a particular example or multiple examples are more interesting for any reason, you can definitely mention and discuss them here. If you have bookmarks or links to sources they would be hugely appreciated, and I will add them as soon as I can. The more info you can give for each one the better, but a dump of links is also welcome.
(From memory, I think manuscriptorium can be a little awkward with specific folios and their parent manuscript? If possible, linking to the manuscript itself along with its contents would be extremely helpful!)
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Pierre Dumont Himself - 02-09-2026
Here's one more from Prague: Astronomical Anthology for Wenceslas IV (Munich, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek, Clm
826, folio 8r)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A friend of mine sent me this book on Alfonsine astronomy (Prague manuscripts from p. 199):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Linked manuscripts on the website (one French, one Italian and one Timurid)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
LEÓN. REAL BASÍLICA DE SAN ISIDORO
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cathedral of Jaca
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Tempio malatestiano, cappella delle Divinità planetarie, Rimini
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Villa Stati-Mattei
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Three manuscripts cited here (two Flemish, one Sicilian):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
More of the same:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Kunitzsch's tables described here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Ancient zodiac fragment from Salona near Split: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Pierre Dumont Himself - 17-09-2026
Zodiac in Lucca: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - eggyk - 21-09-2026
Hello all,
Work on the spreadsheet has still been continuing, although at a slightly slower pace so I could take a break and not damage my mouse-holding hand. I appreciate all of the additions being sent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New library additions:
Entries have now been added from:
The Oxford Bodleian Library (~40+ sources added, including many english works)
Manuscriptorium (~15+ sources added, including a bunch of czech works)
As well as many from other sources previously missed from the BnF, ÖNB, Vatican, Met Museum and others. e-codices is a difficult and slow process, because they seem to throttle the connection if you sneeze in the general direction of their site
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Mediums:
Thanks to Pierre, I also have added many entries from stonework, mozaics, or frescoes, many of which from Italy. Some of them have not been added though, as I could not find any decent enough images of the zodiac signs to add. For some others, I managed to find the signs hidden within certain youtube video tours, but to do that for every entry isn't feasible.
(Reminder to anyone visiting italy: if you are taking images of zodiac signs above front entrances or on the walls, please zoom in.. or use a phone made after 2010! And if you decide to take the picture of one sign, please do the rest!!)
I am currently also looking at non-manuscript entries from the Met Museum and elsewhere, including paintings, metalwork, and ceramic decorations. After all, the VMS author took their inspiration from somewhere, which may have included their dinner plate or the inkwell on their desk!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time period matches:
I have added a (rough) feature displaying whether an entry matches the VMS in its dating. This is a more of an art than a science, because many dating ranges are very broad, and often include simply "14th century" or "15th Century". Although the same 0, 0.5, 1, 1.5 system is being used here, these scores do not affect the scoring directly. However, the lists for each sign will probably be sorted using these values (after their total score), meaning entries on the same total score will be ordered from most relevant time period to least.
Some of my justifications for this are a result of trial and error, but the idea is effectively this:
1404-1435 is certainly relevant with regards to carbon dating.
1390-1403 and 1436-1449 are potentially relevant (someone in 1390 could easily have been active in 1405, and someone active in 1430 could have easily been active in 1445).
So:
If the dating range is 100% relevant, perfect.
If the dating range is contains definitely relevant parts, good.
If the dating range contains the relevant parts, but is part of a huge range, okay.
If the dating range contains only potentially relevant parts, okay.
If the dating range contains only potentially relevant parts, but begins far too early or ends far too late, meh, maybe.
If the dating range doesn't match at all, bad.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is this?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1400-1425AD
Unknown location, written in German
I could use some help identifying what this work is, or what context these symbols are being used within. All of the zodiac symbols are present, but are intermixed with other symbols/animals. Is this astrological use, or something else?
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Koen G - 21-09-2026
Great work, Eggy! I hope people can appreciate the amount of effort you are putting into this, for the benefit of our collective knowledge and understanding. Soon I will join in again to do some rows
About the MS, see Marco's post here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.