+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Astrology (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-34.html)
+--- Thread: Classical astrology in the text of the Voynich zodiac? (/thread-580.html)
RE: Classical astrology in the text of the Voynich zodiac? - Antonio García Jiménez - 25-05-2018
Hello Marco,
ched and shed are different locations of the Moon in the sphere and therefore you see them in the rings of text but no in the labels of the nymps-stars.
There aren't letters, no words; only a sequence of symbols. © is de sign of the Moon with its other variants
Hello Marco,
ched and shed are different locations of the Moon in the sphere and therefore you see them in the rings of text but no in the labels of the nymphs-stars.
There aren't letters, no words; only a sequence of symbols. © is de sign of the Moon with its other variants
RE: Classical astrology in the text of the Voynich zodiac? - ChenZheChina - 28-08-2018
(07-05-2016, 03:38 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Maybe it's easier to explain this with a visual example...
In Chinese, you take a character like this (two versions of a similar concept, top and bottom):
Okay, the main concept is on the right. The radical (modifier) is on the left.
These two character-combinations both mean sister but notice the chars on the right are different for each one, as they are different versions of the idea of a sister.
The radical on the left means woman/female. Combined with the character on the right indicates a familial (blood) relationship.
The character on the bottom right can mean a number of things, like lesser, or farther, and when you combine it with the radical for woman, then you get a younger (lesser, smaller) sister or it can also be used to mean a "friend-sister" (one who is not blood related).
![[Image: ChineseCharSister.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ChineseCharSister.jpg)
Hi JKP,
Your idea of splitting Voynichese words into main-part and modifier-part is interesting, but I don’t think your comparison with Chinese is correct. The right parts, or phonetic parts, are not “main concepts”. On contrast, they do not represent any concept at all. They are merely pronunciations.
Chinese: 姊妹 (ㄗˇㄇㄟ`, zǐmèi) / 女 (ㄋㄩˇ, nǚ)
Japanese Kyūjitai: 姊妹 (しまい, shimai) / 女 (G=にょ, nyo or K=じょ, jo)
Japanese Shinjitai: 姉妹 (しまい, shimai) / 女 (G=にょ, nyo or K=じょ, jo)
Korean: 姊妹 (자매, jamae) / 女 (N=녀, nyeo or S=여, yeo)
In Chinese, characters like this are called phono-semantic characters, or radical-phonetic characters. It means that they are compound of one phonetic component and (usually) one semantic component (a.k.a. radical).
For example, the 女, which means woman/female, in the left is their semantic components. However, the components in the right, or phonetic components, simply represent pronunciations, but have nothing to do with their final meanings.
If we look into the phonetic parts, we will find that u+20094 means “to stop”, while 未 means “not yet”. They both have nothing to do with 姊 (elder sister) or 妹 (younger sister) in meaning. However, if we compare their pronunciations with 姊妹, we will find that:
Chinese: u+20094 (ㄗˇ, zǐ) / 未 (ㄨㄟ`, wèi)
Japanese: u+20094 (no data; theoretically し, shi) / 未 (み, mi)
Korean: u+20094 (no data; theoretically 자, ja) / 未 (미, mi)
Both u+20094 and 未 have similar pronunciations as 姊 and 妹, respectively.
In Japanese Shinjitai, 姊 has been simplified to 姉, because 市 (し, shi) has the same reading as u+20094 in Japanese. 市 means “city” or “market” and, again, it has nothing to do with “elder sister”, concept-wise.
What I want to say is, in Chinese, there is no way to know what a character means from only the phonetic part. The semantic part may help, like in this case, for the reader to realize that it has something to do with woman/female, but it is usually impossible to simply replace the semantic part and still to result in a valid character.
Edit: No, there is no relation between “to stop” and “elder”, or between “not yet” and “younger”. They are merely coincidences.
RE: Classical astrology in the text of the Voynich zodiac? - -JKP- - 28-08-2018
You're correct, Chen Zhe, it's not a perfect analogy. I was trying to think of a way to express VMS glyph combinations as "sense" units rather than as individual letters, and since this way of combining linguistic units (whether concepts or sounds) is unfamiliar in western languages, I was hoping to illustrate the idea with examples from Asian languages, where shapes can express ideas in addition to sounds.
RE: Classical astrology in the text of the Voynich zodiac? - ChenZheChina - 28-08-2018
(28-08-2018, 10:14 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You're correct, Chen Zhe, it's not a perfect analogy. I was trying to think of a way to express VMS glyph combinations as "sense" units rather than as individual letters, and since this way of combining linguistic units (whether concepts or sounds) is unfamiliar in western languages, I was hoping to illustrate the idea with examples from Asian languages, where shapes can express ideas in addition to sounds.
Your idea is very interesting. Hope to hear good news from you.
If you have any question about Chinese characters, don’t hesitate to ask me. I’m glad to help.