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+--- Thread: f80r top nymphs (/thread-576.html)
RE: f80r top nymphs - MarcoP - 02-05-2016
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discusses a XIV Century manuscript of the Ovid Moralisé ("L’iconographie d’un manuscrit de l’Ovide moralisé, Rouen O4" by Olivia Kohli).
I attach the illustration representing Philomena, Procne and Thereus turned into birds.
RE: f80r top nymphs - -JKP- - 02-05-2016
(02-05-2016, 12:31 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP, I think something went wrong there.
The arrangement of the bifolios can be seen here:
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(although a few of the folds may have changed direction).
In any case, 79 and 80 are one bifolio, so it is the same as presently visible in the MS.
79v is next to 80r.
The defining part of this myth, like the thread is for Ariadne, the swan is for Leda,
etc etc. is the story of her life woven into a piece of cloth, since she cold neither
speak nor write.
René thanks. I'll have to find the time to complete this task.
I've double-checked some of the folio combinations at the beginning of the manuscript, so I'm fairly sure they are correct but I have a long way to go to finish the job and the ones near the middle and end could be completely off and need some shuffling.
Edit, addition:
I just remembered why I never finished this project. Some of the sheets have been cut and I wasn't sure if my assessment of which ones they were (based on the scans) was correct. I needed confirmation of the cut folios (and more free time) before I could finish the job.
RE: f80r top nymphs - MarcoP - 03-05-2016
Wonderful illustrations of Ovid's Metamorphoses can be found in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1300-25).
I attach the end of the story of Tereus and Philomela.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 03-05-2016
Thanks Marco, that makes for an interesting comparison. I attach below a comparison between the VM scenes and those you show here. Some observations:
- VM sticks more to Ovid's words, picturing even a scene of "consternation" with the character running around. Notice, for example, how the fabric is color-on-white in the VM, while in the medieval manuscript it's red on one side, purple on the other. It includes some extra scenes and shows the characters fleeing before they turn into birds. It even has one of the women moving towards a roof, just like Ovid says. This is an immense contrast with the "three half-birds in a row" from the other MS.
- The VM observes some unusual habits or taboos, which at times make them select different scenes or depict things more symbolically. Especially striking is that it avoids the depiction of extreme violence and things that relate to it: knives, swords, dismemberment... Notice how even the prince's decapitated head, the most dramatic moment in the story, the resolve if you will (it concludes Philomela's revenge on the king) - the VM represents this head by a strange, symbolical form. You can see the hair on the sides, bloodstained, you can see the pale skin, the neck... but it isn't overtly depicted as a head!
- VM insists on nudity in most cases, often complicating things because sometimes a character's dress is important. It uses attributes like the spindle instead.
- VM has an extreme focus on female characters and sometimes even gives men boobs! I think this might be because someone has been adding boobs afterwards, you can see evidence of this in some characters.
- VM uses unusual patterning and symbolism at times, for example in the final picture it shows one of the women diving downwards towards a wind-wing like thing, suggesting the imminent transformation.
What do you think?
By the way, I'm onto some other scenes as well, but all the points I mentioned above make it very hard to analyze. I don't know if it would be the best to put this on the forum already or kind of stay in my own corner until it's more certain?
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 03-05-2016
Oh, I misplaced one picture, the VM scene where the messenger arrives with the queen should move to the right, and the scene wher Philomela explains her adventures to the queen is not in the other MS.
By the way, with what I've seen so far, I wouldn't be surprised if this section turned out to be a partial translated illustrated Metamorphoses full stop.
RE: f80r top nymphs - ReneZ - 04-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 08:29 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What do you think?
Well, the most important thing I think is that this is a discussion that is necessarily subjective, so unlikely to be conclusive.
It is quite typical in these forum discussions that it is opinion against opinion.
So, against that background....
First thanks to Marco for finding this illustrated Ovid MS. It is another fine example of the incredible amount of human effort that went into the production of medieval books.
The cycle of illustrations captures most if not all key scenes:
- the cutting out of the tongue,
- the handing over of the cloth
- showing the cloth to her sister
- serving the son to the king and showing his cut off head
- three people turning into birds
Some of the Paris illustrations are not clear giveaways, but together, without reading the text, it is clear which myth is being shown here.
In the Voynich MS we don't have any of these key scenes, but some that could be explained in this way.
The most interesting one, having the hands tied behind the back, does not include the tongue cutting, which is the key event in the story here.
What's more, as visible on this interesting blog page of VViews:
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there are several other cases where nymphs have their hands behind their back (with a few of them as if they are also tied together).
(There's more to be said about this blog page, but under another heading).
The cloth, with the story of her ordeal woven into pictures, appears twice in the Paris MS. The wand in the Voynich MS seems just like a piece of clothing without any particular role.
There are two people and two birds (not three), and it is lacking the key 'metamorphosis' of changing from people to birds (which is why the story is in Ovid in the first place, of course).
What's more, this is on the reverse of the rosettes page, where a connnection with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. would not really be expected.
So, that's my personal view...
RE: f80r top nymphs - MarcoP - 04-05-2016
(03-05-2016, 10:01 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By the way, with what I've seen so far, I wouldn't be surprised if this section turned out to be a partial translated illustrated Metamorphoses full stop.
Speculation that only considers the manuscript's pictures grants you all the freedom in the world: it is not falsifiable.
If you suggest that the text is a translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses full stop, you are formulating a very specific and testable hypothesis. The obvious implication is that the names of the characters appear not only in the labels but also (several times) in the text: with a moderate effort, you could prove if your hypothesis is right or wrong.
This is something along the lines of what Stephen Bax and others have been doing following the hypothesis that the first part of the Voynich manuscript is a herbal. But you are being more specific in your hypothesis, so it will be easier for you to check if you are right.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 04-05-2016
Rene, I agree that there are significant differences, and I explain possible reasons above. The most neutral way I can put it is that the VM is not directly a part of the same tradition, so we shouldn't expect the same treatment of the contents. For example, the VM gives a decent depiction of both women blending into the festival goers, while this is omitted in the other MS. On the other hand, there isn't a single sword, and no chopping off limbs. As if the VM author went to great lengths to avoid depictions of extreme violence - for whatever reason.
Comparing these stories can give an insight into the way the VM imagery is constructed.
Even if we want to see the VM as a product of a medieval creative mind, we still have to admit that it very often deviates from the tradition - in the zodiac, in the botanical imagery - then why should it match the tradition here? I think this comparison is wonderful, since it exposes the way the VM handles imagery.
If we keep using the tradition as a standard to which the VM must obey, we will never be able to conclude anything, becaust the VM deviates from the tradition. There is overlap, of course, but in many cases it's in its own box. If it weren't, we would have solved it already.
I attach a slightly updated image, correcting the mismatch from the previous one.
About the world map: that is not an illustration of the Metamorphoses, but some elements of its design might be inspired by the world described by Ovid. For example, he discerns five regions of the earth and five regions of heaven. If you let the middle ones overlap, you get nine zones.
And in another passage, he writes:
Quote:There is a place at the centre of the World, between the zones of earth, sea, and sky, at the boundary of the three worlds. From here, whatever exists is seen, however far away, and every voice reaches listening ears. Rumor lives there, choosing a house for herself on a high mountain summit, adding innumerable entrances, a thousand openings, and no doors to bar the threshold. It is open night and day: and is all of sounding bronze.
A place at the centre of the earth, with numerous openings in bronze, from where everything is seen and heard. I know of a place in the middle of the world with numerous metallic looking openings, pointing all around... it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
And another passage:
Quote:Then he ordered the seas to spread and rise in waves in the flowing winds and pour around the coasts of the encircled land. He added springs and standing pools and lakes, and contained in shelving banks the widely separated riversI'm not even gonna link to where you can find shelving banks on the map.
In isolation, none of this is impressive, but it does add up. Quire 13, including the large foldout, appears to me as a very peculiar interpretation of the Metamorphoses. There are some narrative threads, but they are scattered and in some places a whole has been created using information from various chapters.
I think another promising lead is the chapters about the flood, where Ovid tells a story similar to the Biblical flood. I'm currently writing out my analysis of another chapter, so I'll just put this one here already in case anyone wants to have a look. It's very symbolical though, so you can't be too uptight about the details. The VM author took language that was allegorical already, and made it even worse.
The flood chapter starts here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And this text corresponds to the utterly absurd You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
It's pretty easy once you get the text, and know that the attributes of the characters are transposed onto their "vehicles" AND that all or most characters have been made female. For example:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ...... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., ..His beard is heavy with rain, water streams from his grey hair, mists wreathe his forehead.... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view...
Und so weiter...
Marco - In theory, you are completely right.
What I said about the text is nothing more than an idea - I am much more certain about the imagery.
Putting the text to the test sounds easy, but there are a number of complicating factors:
- We don't know into which language it's translated.
- The labels probably do not stand for characters' names, otherwise it would be easy. I don't know what they do stand for - maybe which part of the text the drawing is about? I don't know.
- We don't know to what extent the script allows for variation in spelling.
- We don't know to what extent grammar changes names, and how this reflects in the script.
- We don't know if the text is abbreviated or adapted
RE: f80r top nymphs - R. Sale - 04-05-2016
Koen,
You sound like an honest used car salesman, "Everything runs perfectly, - -except for this, this, this and this." If your proposed identification provides no help to access the VMs language, what should we do with it? It's an allegorical adaptation, leaving out the ugly parts, that matches more or less. Okay, that's fine. But what good is it with all these pictorial exceptions and linguistic limitations?
It shows the author may well have been an educated person, who had read Ovid. This seems a potentially valid supposition. And I have argued for an detailed knowledge of history and heraldry on the author's part.
I've also gone fishing for an alternative interpretation of these images. It's not as elaborate and doesn't include include the peripheral illustrations. As a secondary interpretation, however, I see the man of the right as an equivalent to Charon, delivering a soul to the Underworld. And as the souls rise up, in the series of images, they are greeted by Persephone, Queen of the Afterlife. And as they move past her and see the Fields of Elysium before them, they break into a run. That's what that funny extra leg-like appendage thing is - on the next to last figure on the left. It's an illustration of souls going full tilt into paradise - in a VMS sort of representation.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 04-05-2016
R.Sale
I'm not trying to force my interpretation onto the imagery. I just note which conventions are observed, broken or introduced by the imagery. It sure is annoying that they are there, otherwise we'd have a much easier time understanding this manuscript.
The Voynich is what it is though, I can't help that. I'm just trying to pull some threads out of its tangle.