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+--- Thread: The Meaning Survey - March 2026 (/thread-5423.html)
RE: The Meaning Survey - March 2026 - Jorge_Stolfi - 09-03-2026
(09-03-2026, 11:37 AM)Rafal Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In De Balneis you will find both arches and columns looking like the pipes from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and people laying under blankets.
I am quite sure that the Balneis was one of several books that the "Artist" was drawing "inspiration" from. And this theory is at least 20 years old. And recently people have posted clips from several versions, one of which includes a natural pool and water slide in a cave that may have been the source for part of f75r.
But very recently people have found other books that look very much like the sources for other drawings or details thereof. There is a drawing of a water siphon in a book by Taccola that looks very much like the "mug handle" on the water slide of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- except that the Scribe apparently did not understand what it was.
And recently also people have found a book by Oresme with a miniature that looks totally like the "spiral nebula with T-O map" of f68v3 -- except that, again, the "Artist" had no idea of what it was.
Ad someone also found a German book about the four seasons with drawings of "four ages of life" that look very much like the drawings on f85r2 -- except that (need to say?) the "Artist" again misunderstood several details. (Like replacing a rosary or light chain by three linked rings of balls, and a doctor's urine sample flask by a perfume bottle.)
And someone noted that several details of the herbal section, like a "baby dragon" nibbling at a plant, look like they were copied (badly, of course) from the so-called Alchemists' Herbal.
And the scattered "painting keys" seen on some early Herbal pages were probably unthinkingly copied from painting keys or part labels seen in that or other herbals.
I am sure that many more such "cribs" will eventually be identified.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The Meaning Survey - March 2026 - ReneZ - 10-03-2026
A lot of similarities that are being proposed here are just based on the fact that we are looking at two things from roughly the same time frame. Most of the examples in the 'nymphs thread' would fall into this category.
The example of the Balneis stands above that.
And that is still a medical subject.
RE: The Meaning Survey - March 2026 - R. Sale - 10-03-2026
@Jorge: FYI the Oresme investigation dates back to 2014. Not that recent, IMO.
I have to object to your "Stupid Artist" Hypothesis. In the 'Oresme' version [BNF Fr. 565], the inverted T-O Earth is represented pictorially, and the lower half is water. Whereas, in the VMs the lower portion contains a vord segment. Are you implying that the VMs artist did not recognize or know how to draw water??
Writing out a potential sentence is not a failure to draw water. It is a change from pictorial communication to linguistic communication: a code shift.
Presuming that the VMs artist misunderstood so much is a potential misinterpretation of intentional alteration and artistic parody. The VMs cosmos is a great example.
RE: The Meaning Survey - March 2026 - Jorge_Stolfi - 10-03-2026
(10-03-2026, 12:50 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Jorge: FYI the Oresme investigation dates back to 2014. Not that recent, IMO.
Thanks! As you may know, I have been away from the Voynich scene for the last 20 years...
Quote:I have to object to your "Stupid Artist" Hypothesis. In the 'Oresme' version [BNF Fr. 565], the inverted T-O Earth is represented pictorially, and the lower half is water. Whereas, in the VMs the lower portion contains a word segment. Are you implying that the VMs artist did not recognize or know how to draw water??
The Artist surely did not make up everything. On any given page, the Author determined the important parts of the illustration, and the Artist only provided the decorative details. The Author's instructions may have been a verbal description of the figure, and/or a sketch, and/or illustrations from other books, with side notes on what to copy and what to change.
For f68v3, in particular, I suppose that the Author gave the Artist a sketch of the diagram with the eight spiral "roads" or "rivers", including the text to write on them; and the Oresme book, with instructions to copy that figure in the middle of the diagram and write those three words in the "T-O map" sectors. The sketch determined that four of the arms were to end at the cloud-band and four were to extend across it, all the way to the edge of the T-O map.
Or maybe the Author himself roughly copied the Oresme figure onto his sketch.
Unfortunately for him, at that point the Artist had no idea of what a cloud-band was and how it was supposed to be drawn. So instead he drew that bizarre "nebuly octagon" that made the starry sky look like it was cut out of a thick plate. Or a pool of water with the stars floating on it. Who knows what he thought of it...
All the best, --stolfi
RE: The Meaning Survey - March 2026 - R. Sale - 11-03-2026
After such a long hiatus, there are a few developments you may have missed. The cosmic comparison would be one I recommend. VMs f68v3 with BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334. There is a basic form of cosmic structure, obvious in BNF and Harley, but also found in the VMs. A simplified, three-part cosmos without planets or planetary spheres, for starters. There is good provenance for BNF and Harley. Harley has a generic mermaid and 'four' fishy companions. And there are the 43 undulations from BNF that the VMs artist had to squeeze in when they got back to 10 o'clock. That's amazing and amusing, the need to hit 43.
So, the VMs representation is very much reflective of the structural aspects of the two historical images. Yet the VMs image, starting with the vords that replace the pictorial elements of Earth, has a totally altered appearance. It is the same cosmos, structurally - isn't it? It was just made to look different. That age-old, philosophical discussion contrasting appearance and reality.
Perhaps the artist knew the Oresme image but made alterations for the purpose of disguise. What you want to interpret as ineptitude might rather be examples of intentional trickery. The differences may be hard to demonstrate; it's the repetitious use of trickery that is more revealing. [Shirakatsi's wheel, Melusine, White Aries, the Agnus Dei, the half-arcaded tub (Muses)]