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RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 03-11-2025
(03-11-2025, 12:43 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(01-11-2025, 01:46 PM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All paintings are not 100% correct and more of a symbolic nature. They are painted from descriptions or from sketches that maybe only contain parts of the plants and the rest was made up. That is what you would expect from the first travel books to Africa at that time. Systematic paintings start a lot later, around 1500.
This may be true, but it greatly weakens this line of evidence. If much f it is incorrect and up to interpretation, it will be hard to establish when we're looking at genuine information from an African [and swap out other theories being developed along these lines] voyage and when we're looking at symbols and when we're looking at the artists pure speculation. By all means, try and systemically prove which piece we have in front of us, but be aware that's the challenge in front of you.
This is hardly a new problem as it comes up every time someone puts forward the drawings as a launching point, but if you can just ignore inconvenient pieces as symbolic or inaccurate, it becomes pretty easy to fit the drawings to much of the world.
Well, beside the plants there are many other hints I have shown. I have seen a video on youtube were B. tries use the plants to explain the alphabet of the manuscript. And he havent seen that the first letter is a paragraph sign and thats why all his plants has to start with a K. And it looks like this research got a lot of attention.
Look, I have an explanation WHY the plants are not proper painted. Because you can‘t go out and find the plant to paint it probably because it is on another continent. Other theories just accept that the plants look strange and ignore the WHY.
Its strange, I am normally very friendly, but this aggressiv undertone in this forum makes it very hard to stay calm. So a sorry in advance if I seem rude or anything.
I came here not to solve anything, just want to share my ideas that maybe others can pick them up or have similar ideas that can be used for brainstorming.
I thought people would reply and tell me what could fit into addition to my ideas.
But all answers are helpful…
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - RobGea - 04-11-2025
I am sad to read that you feel an aggessive undertone on this forum, to me this forum is mostly a nice place to be,
what you will find is that some replies can be curt or brusque and 'mostly' means there are exceptions.
Kaybo Wrote:I came here not to solve anything, just want to share my ideas that maybe others can pick them up or have similar ideas that can be used for brainstorming.I am glad you stated this so plainly, it is a really nice thought.
I thought people would reply and tell me what could fit into addition to my ideas.
You were perhaps expecting responses like:
User: Oh yes, what a good idea, that plant on f29 looks like an African "africus" tree, this would intersect well with your theory.
That might happen and sometimes does but what you are waaaay more likely to see is:
User: No, the plant on f29 has a bract on the pedicel therefore cannot be an africus tree; because an africus tree always has an epicalyx on the pedicel.
Thats just the way this forum is.
Think positively, most replies that are in the negative nearly always have a reason and sometimes even a link, then you can use them as a learning resource.
Eliminating a wrong answer is one more step to finding the right one.
Coming up with a theory that is rigorous, backed by argument, reasoning, facts, logic, etc is very difficult and takes a lot of time and effort.
For instance, you stated that:
"The animal on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a Manis tricuspis. Thats so obvious for me"
This is a fine idea, it certainly could be an African tree pangolin( Manis tricuspis) ,
however your argument for this statement is by saying 'thats so obvious for me'.
I hope you can see, that this is an opinion, there is no weight behind it,
someone else may claim with equal authority that "it is obvious to me that this is an Armadillo".
FYI the Pangolin vs Armadillo debate is infamous in Voynich circles and highly contentious,
there are even cartoons about it.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Although it may not seem like it, members can be quite helpful, don't be afraid to ask for help / assistance / resources.
- a thread entitled something like 'How to locate original Portugese Roteiro's' may bring some answers.
If you are serious about your theory, keep at it, weather the storms, use and absorb any criticism, some like-minded people may appear and most of all enjoy doing it.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 04-11-2025
I want to give some pictures from old nautical astrology or nautical logbooks from Portugal so you can see the similarities (maybe). First book is called Livro de Marinharia 1514. I know its later, but there is nothing left from the old roteiros, maybe because they were not useful at all because they were unreadable.
Translation (LLM was used!):
- 〚Maj[o] murado na noĩa — 1 ora abaixo da cabeça (e na fim do mar na noĩa na leste)〛
→ May walled in the noia — 1 hour below the head (and at the end of the sea in the noia in the east)
- 〚Junho murado na noĩa — 1 ora abaixo da linha do mez noroueste na fim do mar na noĩa abaixo da linha〛
→ June walled in the noia — 1 hour below the line of the northwest month at the end of the sea in the noia below the line
- 〚Julho murado na noĩa no baixo do dalinho na fim do mar na noĩa hua ora〛
→ July walled in the noia at the low of the dalinho at the end of the sea in the noia one hour
- 〚Agosto murado na noĩa — 2 oras abaixo do cravo (e na fim do mar na noĩa na leste)〛
→ August walled in the noia — 2 hours below the clove (and at the end of the sea in the noia in the east)
- 〚Setembro murado na noĩa hua ora abaixo da linha (e na fim do mar — 2 oras abaixo da linha)〛
→ September walled in the noia one hour below the line (and at the end of the sea — 2 hours below the line)
- 〚Outubro murado na noĩa no pẽt (na fim do mar na noĩa acima do pẽt)〛
→ October walled in the noia at the pẽt (at the end of the sea in the noia above the pẽt)
- 〚Novembro murado na noĩa 2 oras acima do pẽt na fim do mar na noĩa da na leste do firmador〛
→ November walled in the noia two hours above the pẽt at the end of the sea in the noia in the east of the firmador
- 〚Dezembro murado na noĩa hua ora acima da linha na fim do mar na noĩa 2 nas acima da linha〛
→ December walled in the noia one hour above the line at the end of the sea in the noia two above the line
(Diagram text)
“abrilmeado / mayo / fin de mayo / fin de julio / fin de enero / fin de marzo” etc.
→ mid-April / May / end of May / end of July / end of January / end of March
Last paragraph:
〚Assy as guardas de nova desta forma as noĩas na cabeça a meado d’abril dally dao passando fugido na costa pela banda do mar de mayo & cada 15 dias passam hua hora adiante, & d’huas d’alboda atè ardecer〛
→ Thus the guards of the new (moon?) in this form, the noias at the head in mid-April, from there passing fleetingly along the coast on the side of the sea of May, and every 15 days they pass one hour forward, and from the dawns until sunset.
Notes on context:
- noĩa (modern noite or noção) likely refers here to a nautical “noon line” or direction; possibly noite (night), noia as “sign” or “mark.”
- murado (“walled”) in 16th-century Portuguese nautical notes often meant “fixed” or “marked”, not literally “walled.”
- The circular diagram appears to be an astrological or navigational wheel, marking solar or lunar hours and compass divisions.
This is from a book around 1570. It shows the 12 winds. Which could be what is f67r2 is about. In the middle you have 8 arms of a compass rose and then you have the 12 winds.
This is about how to navigate with an astrolabe, in the outer circle are the names of the month:
You need something with stars? Here it is.
LLM:
The page explains:
- How the Sun moves through the zodiac and the ecliptic plane.
- How six principal celestial circles are imagined on the sphere of the heavens.
- How these circles relate to the poles, the equator, the tropics, and the zodiac signs.
- The relationship between the Sun and Moon, especially when they appear in the same or opposite zodiac signs — i.e. solar and lunar eclipses.
Book link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If the voynich mauscript is from Portugal, Spain or Italy, I don't know, but what we can say for sure, there is at least a part, that has something to do with nautical navigation.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - ReneZ - 04-11-2025
(04-11-2025, 01:31 AM)Kaybo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If the voynich mauscript is from Portugal, Spain or Italy, I don't know, but what we can say for sure, there is at least a part, that has something to do with nautical navigation.
I understand that you feel confident about that, but there are lots of other manuscripts that deal not with navigation, but with astrology and/or cosmology, that have similar illustrations to the ones you show, and (to some extent) to the ones in the Voynich MS.
If you search the forum for (Barbara) Obrist, you will find some good examples.
RE: The Voynich Manuscript as an Iberian-African Voyage Record - Kaybo - 04-11-2025
(04-11-2025, 04:06 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I understand that you feel confident about that, but there are lots of other manuscripts that deal not with navigation, but with astrology and/or cosmology, that have similar illustrations to the ones you show, and (to some extent) to the ones in the Voynich MS.
If you search the forum for (Barbara) Obrist, you will find some good examples.
Well, I will try to check it up, astrology and the nautical handbooks have a lot in common at this time. However, the use of compass roses is very limited if it is purely about astrology or cosmology and we have a lot of compass roses in voynich?
I think this nautical travel report is not a bad idea, it can explain everything very well. It can explain why we have strange plants, why we have naked woman, it can explain why we have compass roses and zodiac signs and it can explain why we have the star section and why it is encrypted.
But of cause it can be also a herbal cosmology recipe book or something similar.
In general I want to collect here everything that would fit into the theory (and of cause arguments against it), so that people are aware that there is this possibility and that they can use it if they find out something that would fit to it or have similar ideas. Since I will not try to translate anything (I hope I will not), this will stay more on a level of an idea than a theory ;-)