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+--- Thread: The Voynich elephant (/thread-455.html)
RE: The Voynich elephant - Koen G - 12-03-2016
I say earlier because I believe much of MS Beinecke 408 was copied from earlier sources. That is why I think the best parallels would probably be found in pre-medieval works, if many of those exist at all. I also don't know if there's a more or less uninterrupted line between ancient practices of root figures and the medieval ones, or if we are looking at various totally unconnected traditons. Some similarities suggest a degree of continuity, but on the other hand it's not unimaginable that various cultures drew roots like hands independently.
RE: The Voynich elephant - MarcoP - 13-03-2016
(12-03-2016, 11:53 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also don't know if there's a more or less uninterrupted line between ancient practices of root figures and the medieval ones, or if we are looking at various totally unconnected traditons. Some similarities suggest a degree of continuity, but on the other hand it's not unimaginable that various cultures drew roots like hands independently.
There certainly is continuity in the European herbal tradition: Segre's comments tracing the roots in the XIV and XV century alchemical herbals back to the VII Century Naples Dioscorides are an example of how art historians see the evolution of herbal images.
Here is another example based on the already mentioned You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The philologists have dated the text to the IV Century, but the earliest surviving manuscript dates to the VI. As you can see, the text has been altered through the centuries, but it is still well recognizable.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
de draconis sanguine fertur nata esse dracontea nascitur in montibus....
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draconis sanguine nata fert[ur] e[ss]e. nascit[ur] in montib; ...
The evolution of the illustrations is more complex and it is not easily verbally described. I would say that the German You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. compares well with this tradition, so I add it in. The left image is 1000 years older than the right image. The left and the center images illustrate the same text. The center and the right images are both German, feature two composite leaves on the left, one composite leaf on the right, a single tubular flower and dragon-roots.
The independent, parallel evolution of similar traditions is “not unimaginable” but in general I think it is logical to first consider the idea that two similar phenomena are related, rather than independent. The number of “not unimaginable” ideas is infinite and I need a way to set priorities and decide in which order to pursue ideas.
Of course, things can be different from what they seem, but usually similar things are related (why look for similarities, if this were not the case?). One needs good reasons to discard the most simple hypothesis (a single line of evolution) for a more complex hypothesis based on multiple independent lines of evolution (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
In my opinion, when possible, similarity should be explained as dependence on a common source, and we are “only” left with differences to explain.
RE: The Voynich elephant - Anton - 24-03-2016
I find the "mnemonics" discourse very interesting. By the way, it suggests that labels associated with plants in the pharma section of the VMS may have nothing in common with the plants names, the latter being conveyed by way of "mnemonics".
(08-03-2016, 10:42 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The right part of the root on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also looks a bit like an elephant (I'm not the first to see this), but much less accurate than that leaf. It looks more like the European medieval drawings than a real elephant. I can think of the following explanations for that discrepancy:
- The drawings were made by different artists
- They were copied from different sources
- The artist based them on different pictures of elephants, maybe not recognizing that they were supposed to depict the same animal
- The animal in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not an elephant (but what else could it be?)
I would note that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is Currier B, while You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is Currier A.
RE: The Voynich elephant - Koen G - 24-03-2016
Anton, I argue that those labels do refer to the plant name in the first place, but also approach the name of the mnemonic image. The mnemonics are just that: a trick to remember this difficult foreign plant name.
RE: The Voynich elephant - Anton - 24-03-2016
(24-03-2016, 04:05 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anton, I argue that those labels do refer to the plant name in the first place, but also approach the name of the mnemonic image. The mnemonics are just that: a trick to remember this difficult foreign plant name.
Actually it would be easier if they did not refer to the plant name. E.g. consider Fig. 1 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. otol is one of "Voynich stars", it is also a plant label, and it is also encountered in some other contexts. Too many for a plant's name, isn't it?
RE: The Voynich elephant - Koen G - 24-03-2016
(24-03-2016, 04:24 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(24-03-2016, 04:05 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anton, I argue that those labels do refer to the plant name in the first place, but also approach the name of the mnemonic image. The mnemonics are just that: a trick to remember this difficult foreign plant name.
Actually it would be easier if they did not refer to the plant name. E.g. consider Fig. 1 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. otol is one of "Voynich stars", it is also a plant label, and it is also encountered in some other contexts. Too many for a plant's name, isn't it?
That would be a bit of a problem if we were operating within one language. However, the presence of linguistic memory hints in these plants indicates that their labels are actually their foreign names, i.e. the names they are called in their local context. I would read this otol as /tos/ or /dos/, very short words which can easily be a plant name in one language and something entirely different in the "Voynich native tongue" if such a thing exists.
RE: The Voynich elephant - R. Sale - 24-03-2016
The word 'otol' occurs three times in the outer, circular band of text on f71r, White Aries.
RE: The Voynich elephant - MarcoP - 24-03-2016
(24-03-2016, 04:24 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.E.g. consider Fig. 1 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. otol is one of "Voynich stars", it is also a plant label, and it is also encountered in some other contexts. Too many for a plant's name, isn't it?
As a possible explanation, one could also consider the connections between herbals and astrology. For instance the alchemical herbals include many types of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (moon's) plants.
Some herbals included a treaty about the virtues of seven plants associated with the seven planets (footnote 61 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
1615 printed edition You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Many plant names still preserve traces of an association with one of the seven planets:
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (of Mercury)
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Venus' hair)
- Saturnia (see synonims You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
Similar beliefs were presented in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: The Voynich elephant - Anton - 24-03-2016
To not digress from the subject of the thread, I'd just note that this otol is something deserving large attention, just because of its various application in the VMS. I summarized that in Section 3 of my blog post cited above.
If anyone has thoughts about what otol stands for, it would be a very interesting reading (please open a separate thread).
RE: The Voynich elephant - Koen G - 08-04-2016
I came across this image on Pinterest. Since many people here share my love for strange medieval animal depictions, I thought I'd share it here. The image is described as follows:
Quote:Bodleian Library, MS. Laud Misc. 247, Folio 163v
Elephants need mandrake to mate successfully. Here they have found male and female mandrake, shown as little people.
![[Image: 2a225f7f189a00780caed05c29636c3f.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2a/22/5f/2a225f7f189a00780caed05c29636c3f.jpg)