+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy (/thread-421.html)
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - ReneZ - 01-03-2016
Looking at other illustated herbal MSs has been a bit of an eye-opener for me, regarding the Voynich MS.
I started collecting as many images as I could find, some 5-6 years ago now.
This made it clear that a lot of the things typically said about the Voynich MS herb illustrations are not true.
One is the supposed low quality of the drawings.
Toresella raised interest in the alchemical herbals with his paper, and the fact that many of the herbs in them appear fantastic. However, the Voynich MS drawings are far superior in detail.
Even celebrated herbal MSs have drawings that are far simpler than in the Voynich MS.
They just 'look bad' because of the sloppy painting.
Take that away and you have quite nice outline drawings.
The 'waterlily' is a case in point. Even though they may represent different plants, the one in the Voynich MS is drawn in much more detail than in Egerton 747, Paris BN Lat 6823 and Sloane 4016.
The other striking thing was that many details in the drawings seem to have been "taken from" known herbal MSs.
I firmly believe that the Voynich MS artist (draughtsman) must have seen herbal MSs. One just doesn't come up with such elements in plant drawings by oneself.
The traditional view that remained unchallenged was that the Voynich MS does not copy any series of illustrations from any other known herbal. At least not among the 60 or so I've seen.
The similarity of the ivy-and-oak is not one of a copy - at best an inspiration. And it is a single case so far.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 01-03-2016
[quote pid='1897' dateline='1456832708']
Davidschrene i agree with you: saying it isn't this or that because it resembles more this and that doesn't help.
Also, it is my opinion after much study, that discussion what herbal looks like which herbal is somewhat useless.
Because, for example:
*herbals in general in the period of the VMS are drawn not nature-like
The VMS is not a general herbal. No one would draw a rhizome that accurately by accident, especially since other illustrators of the time almost never paid attention to the details of rhizomes and the VMS illustrator did. Even the veins in each plant, when they help in identification, are carefully drawn to follow the type for that plant. So are the leaf margins. As fantastical as they may seem, the morphology of the VMS plants, in the detail sense, is not fantastical, even if the overall look is stylized.
*herbals in de VMS are not nature-like
Many of the VMS plants are "true to form", whether people can see it or not. Look at the "water lily", viola (very accurate), castor oil, Greek oregano, Phu, and Cannabis plant (and there are others). The attention to the plant's morphology is one of the things that drew me to the manuscript and which holds me to it. To interpret the plants, you need to learn the VMS iconography, but once you do, it's used pretty consistently. You can't always narrow down the specific species, but with many you can get it down to two or three, which is more than you can say for most medieval herbals.
*herbals in similar MS have often names that are not latin, but slang or invented names
Often that "slang" name is the local name and we have enough information now, on the Web, to track down some of those local names.
*herbals are always copied and then altered and then copied again
What is unique about the VMS is that the copying aspect is not as strong as with other manuscripts. I believe, from extensive study of the plants, that at least some may have been drawn from real specimens, or possibly in the field, and that is why they differ from herbal tradition.
*coloring of the herbals is often done with colors "at hand"
I strongly suspect much of the paint was added later in another hand. When you separate out the messy ones from the careful ones, you can see that colors were carefully chosen, even if it was a limited palette. Even the shade of green for the leaves has been darkened or lightened (or made slightly bluer) to reflect the species.
What is more interesting to me:
from which MS did the write copy the drawings ?
The only one I've found so far that is close to a direct copy is the "oak tree" host for the vine that resembles Hedera. It definitely follows herbal tradition, I don't think it could be coincidence, but if the VMS illustrator were working from herbarium specimens, for example (or in the field), then they wouldn't come out the same as everyone else's. Some of the others show signs of the illustrator having seen other herbals (the Phu plant, for example, the root with monks' heads, and roots that look vaguely like animals, a common herbal tradition), but the VMS phu is drawn more accurately than most.
I think the reason the plants are different from the standard fare is because the VMS illustrator had genuine scientific leanings and took some of the information from direct experience. The nude ladies are not gratuitous. When it's bathing, or natural cycles, they are nude. When it's something else (e.g., Virgo), they are not. If the person who created the document lived in contemporary society, I suspect this person would sign up for a biology class.
[/quote]
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Davidsch - 01-03-2016
My point is, that comparing links and drawings and details to microscopic level or roots from plant A, seeds from plant C, and curves of the leaves,
counted points on the flowers........come on ! That is useless and a waste of time, in my view.
Also because we can not use a name in ANY language and match it with the accompanied text.
>>The VMS is not a general herbal.
Yes it is. There are many ms with identical drawings. The only problem is: you will have to put on other glasses, to see that!
You wrote a nice comment on the repeating words: look at the letters on the page..wait for it...then you will see....etc.
That is the same here. Take some botanical manuscripts with these drawings and you will see after a couple of hours that they are "main stream" for that period and time.
This is also true for the text: if you have looked at different scripts in the period , let's say 1200-1600 thorough-out Europe, you will quickly recognize writings in different periods. Even the vellum (and the smell of it!) will tell you from where and which period: even the other day i spoke with a curator on that and she agreed with me on that.
Of course, it all depends on specifics and details in the end.
now, i think the herbals are copied. Copied from different manuscripts. and details have been merged together.
I am currently busy with that research and thought that would be nice to discuss. But if you want to talk specific plant details, by all means please go ahead ...the next couple of 25 pages or so.... as I have seen on many many blogs and sites....no problem. But i have seen it leads nowhere.
The page (cicoro) i showed is identical to 2v in my perception. But i understand i am the only one with that belief?
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 01-03-2016
"The page (cicoro) i showed is identical to 2v in my perception."
Nothing except the petals is similar.
cicoro VMS 2v
------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Leaf heart-shaped or sagittate reniform (kidney-shaped)
Root tap root (like dandelion) rhizome with leaf scars (like many wetland and aquatic plants)—a rhizome grows sideways
Style not visible beyond the petals protruding, hirsute/filamentous
I notice you referenced "cicoro" from LJS 419. If you are going to choose a plant from 419 to match with VMS 2v, it would have been better to select Antolus. Even if it's not identical, at least it has rounded (though not quite reniform) leaves and a distinctive rhizome and the extra "wave" above the rhizome suggests it might be an aquatic or wetland plant. I'm not saying LJS 419 and the VMS plant are the same, the LJS 419 plants are less accurately drawn, but you have to look at the morphology of each of the parts, not just the petals.
![[Image: LJSAntolas.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/LJSAntolas.jpg)
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Diane - 02-03-2016
The only reason for assuming that the plant-pictures in the VMS must have been copied from some Latin herbal is that it is already assumed that the copyist came from the Latin environment and had no other existing model for depicting plants.
It's a pretty circular argument when the chief issue is where the content came from - that is provenancing the content.
Rene re-caps my earlier points about the drawings' qualities - thanks for that.
There are customs of drawing in the botanical folios which are not those of the Latin west, let alone of its more limited range in manuscript art.
Just by way of example, many of the stylistic details find their nearest correspondence in certain fabric arts, and for the way of drawing many of the plant-roots (I'd say the majority, but haven't had time to count) the closest comparison is certainly the images made by a Yemeni, a Christian, in a manuscript produced in Rayy.
Other very close comparisons occur in areas adjacent to, or in constant interraction with those areas.
Personally, I concluded that the occasional similarity in western works is better explained as one of distant 'cousinship', rather than 'parent-offspring'. The whole idea of the draughtsman creating his work 'by inspiration', even from the 'inspiration' of another text, seems fairly out of keeping with the way artisans worked in earlier times. Drawings with similar characteristics are not unknown; what is really unusual is the quality of the intelligence informing the drawings, and the near-absolute (I'd in fact say 'absolute') lack of the usual cultural hierarchy whose expression is inextricable from both Christian and Muslim manuscript art of that time. It is plainly present in every herbal I've seen where any human figures appear, and sometimes even when they don't. There's no sign of anything similar in the VMS. I don't believe any Latin could have so far stepped outside his place and time, his upbringing and environment, even if he had travelled to the places he would have to in order to draw some of the plants.
IMO
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - ReneZ - 02-03-2016
(02-03-2016, 04:32 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rene re-caps my earlier points about the drawings' qualities - thanks for that.
Dear Diane,
I don't know what makes you think that I am doing anything else than stating my own opinions.
I am in full disagreement with you that the herbal illustrations (or any other in the MS for that matter)
could not have been made in Europe. Everything I have seen is contrary to that.
I'll leave it at that....
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Diane - 03-03-2016
Sorry rene, I guess that on some points, the parallels between our views are now closer than I'd ever happened to seen you express before.
viz. the quality of the underlying drawings
unlike any set of drawings in a Latin herbal
and a couple of other less important points.
Have you considered any other corpus of botanical imagery apart from Latin herbals?
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 03-03-2016
davishsh wrote: "now, i think the herbals are copied. Copied from different manuscripts. and details have been merged together."
If the VMS drawings are different from other herbals (and I've looked at hundreds of herbals from all over the world, both illustrated and unillustrated), it's not necessarily because researchers haven't found "the right herbal" it could be because the person who drew those images LOOKED AT PLANTS and that possibility is often overlooked.
No medieval herbal illustrator that I've seen in China, Arabia, the New World, or Europe took the time to really examine a rhizome and draw it accurately and in detail as the VMS illustrator did with the "water lily".
As Georgia O'Keefe famously quoted:
“Nobody sees a flower - really - it is so small it takes time - we haven't time - and to see takes time, like to have a friend takes time.”
There's plenty of evidence that the VMS illustrator was exposed to western herbals. Look at the oak tree host for the ivy, the monks' heads in the roots, the animal shapes in others—these are all herbal tradition. We can hunt and hunt all we want for the "parent" manuscript, but if the VMS author filled in the gaps with genuine observation (and a dose of creativity), then a direct precedence for the VMS plants may not exist—any similarities are due to the properties of the plant itself rather than slavish copying from someone else's drawing.
Imagine this as one of several possibilities...
A medieval kid grows up somewhere near a library, maybe a university or monastery library. Kid sees plant drawings and medical compendiums, maybe a doctor's folding almanac (which usually included zodiacs). Now the kid grows up, ends up somewhere else, maybe somewhere remote (e.g., hilltop monastery or somewhere in another country) where the library is sparse or doesn't include herbals, creates one partly from memory, partly from direct observation. You might end up with something like the VMS.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Sam G - 03-03-2016
(01-03-2016, 09:42 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This thought crossed my mind when I began to realize at least some of the VMS plants appear to be drawn from herbarium (flattened) specimens...
Could you elaborate on your reasons for thinking this?
Quote:Is it possible the illustrator worked from a dry specimen and thought the little jug-shaped Asarum flower was the calyx and "invented" the missing petals? I'm not proposing this as a theory. I'm just putting the idea out there as food for thought.
I know very little about botany, but what I've thought about the illustrations (including and especially the non-herbal illustrations) in the VMS since I first started studying it is that they have been drawn largely on the basis of text descriptions. So in the case of the 2v illustration, perhaps someone saw one of the species you suggest it might be, and described it by saying something along the lines of: "it is like a water lily, but the flower is like that of a (insert plant here)". Then later, someone else attempted to draw this, and the result is what we find in the VMS.
I wonder if you think this idea could account for some of the VMS herbal illustrations. Obviously this idea would appear to contradict the idea that the illustrations are accurate drawings from nature, but perhaps the illustrations were produced by a combination of these different methods. The quality and overall "character" of the illustrations does seem to vary considerably.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 03-03-2016
Sam, I have a herbarium collection (a small one) that I've been working on for quite a few years.
There are things you notice about plants when you flatten and dry them. Here are a few observations:
- The relationship of the leaves to the stem is easier to see when they are flattened and dried (and makes it easier to draw).
- The leaves are all flattened in the same dimension, so leaves appear broader because they are not being seen from the side.
- Depending on the flexibility or lack of flexibility of the petiole (the stem that attaches the leaf), sometimes you see the backs of all the leaves or the fronts of all of the leaves because bending them to show both sides (which is preferable), would break the specimen.
- Sometimes you have to bend back the flower (so it's upside-down) in order not to break the stem when you flatten it (look at the flowers on the VMS viola—they are upside-down—it's possible it was drawn from a specimen).
- Petals are fragile and sometimes change color or shrivel up to nothing, or fall off, after they are dried. Leaves and stems will often retain their color (at least for a few years) but petals can change dramatically even within a few days. For example, a purple flower sometimes changes to pale yellow when it's dried.
- Leaves sometimes take on a different shape when they are dried because the veins provide a structure that may hold them more rigidly in one direction than another. For example, there is an African plant that has a normal elliptical leaf when it's alive but when you dry it, it dries more in one direction than the other, and the leaves end up looking like birds' heads with little beaks. There are probably many other plants with similar characteristics.
- Leaves that are spread out horizontally when the plant is alive, sometimes look like semi-vertical clumps when they are dried.