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+--- Thread: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 (/thread-3454.html)
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Koen G - 18-01-2021
I tend to say "made in Europe" to avoid this ambiguity. With a seemingly scientific manuscript, there is always the possibility that its contents have Arabic influences for example.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Aga Tentakulus - 18-01-2021
If I were to consider a coronation as an important event of the time, I would have 2 hits at once. At least as far as the similarity of the crowns is concerned. This is also a reference to Europe. Without referring to the architecture where it can be seen in the VM.
If I now add the grandmother of the first two crowns, all 3 crowns would be under one roof.
If I look at everything astrological, the Arabic, Greek cannot be denied. From a historical point of view.
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RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Mark Knowles - 18-01-2021
(18-01-2021, 12:43 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I tend to say "made in Europe" to avoid this ambiguity. With a seemingly scientific manuscript, there is always the possibility that its contents have Arabic influences for example.
I agree you are right. When I wrote European in origin I meant "made in Europe". Strictly speaking the origin of all matter in the universe was in the Big Bang and therefore that was the origin of all matter in the Voynich and so the Voynich itself. However that was not what I was hinting at.
I suppose it could be argued as to what constitutes "Europe". Does one designate Europe to be west of the Ural mountains and north of the Caucasus?
Of course one can analyse what exactly I meant by an "event" and also "significant".
I don't want to analyse the starting question in detail, but would appreciate if people exercise reasonable sense and to what the thrust of the question is pointing at. Everything could get very "meta" and focus on analysing the question as supposed to the subject of the question. I could when I raised the question included a list of disclaimers to handle all objections to the question, but I thought this would be excessive even though I anticipated these kinds of complaints.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Mark Knowles - 18-01-2021
I thought about whether I should say "continental Europe" as opposed to "Europe" or even "Central Europe". I imagine not many people associate Scotland or Ireland with the Voynich. Still the smaller the geographical area one considers the more people will object to it.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Mark Knowles - 18-01-2021
1404
Owain Glyn Dwr captures Aberystwyth and Harlech from the English and sets up an independent Welsh administration
1406
Pisa is captured by Florence, to be followed a few years later by the purchase of the seaport of Livorno
On the death of his father, Robert III, James I becomes king of Scotland
1407
Rivalry between factions of the French royal family results in the murder in Paris of the king's brother, Louis duke of Orléans, and the onset of civil war
1408
Driven from Aberystwyth and Harlech, Owain Glyn Dwr loses support - and the last Welsh rebellion fades away
1409
The Council at Pisa elects a new pope, Alexander V, without persuading the other two to resign - bringing the total to an unprecedented three
1410
The Poles defeat the Teutonic knights between Tannenberg and Grunwald, bringing the coastal strip around Gdansk into the Polish kingdom
1411
The linen drapers of Florence commission a statue of St Mark from Donatello, who carves for Orsanmichele the first free-standing Renaissance sculpture
1412
The three Limburg brothers illustrate for the duke of Berry the Très Riches Heures, one of the masterpieces of International Gothic
1413
Henry V succeeds his father, Henry IV, as king of England
1414
A council is called at Constance, to consider the radical views of John Huss and to deal with the present excess of popes
1415
Filippo Brunelleschi begins studying the ruins of classical Rome, with a view to rediscovering classical architecture
John Huss, invited to Constance under a promise of safe conduct, is arrested, tried and burnt at the stake as a heretic
Henry V captures the French stronghold of Harfleur - where, in Shakespeare, he urges his dear friends 'once more unto the breach'
Henry V wins a victory on St Crispin's day at Agincourt, against a much larger and more heavily armed French force
A Portuguese prince, Henry the Navigator, becomes fascinated by exploration down the coast of Africa and commissions successive voyages
1417
The Council of Constance, having done its best to dispose of the three existing popes, elects a new one - Martin V
1418
A competition is launched for an architect to construct a dome above Florence's cathedral, and is won by Brunelleschi
1419
After a six-month siege Henry V makes a triumphal entry into Rouen, the city of his Norman ancestors
John the Fearless, duke of Burgundy, is murdered by the Armagnac faction in the presence of the dauphin - escalating France's civil war
1420
The Hussites build a new fortified town at Tabor as their fortress headquarters
Glazed windows become a feature of the richer homes of northern Europe
The Portuguese, discovering the lush and uninhabited island of Madeira, send colonists to settle it
The treaty of Troyes, between the English and the Burgundian faction, grants Henry V the status of heir to the French throne
Henry V marries Catherine, daughter of the French king and sister of the rightful heir to the kingdom, the dauphin, who is on the opposing side
1422
The dauphin proclaims himself Charles VII of France, but with Paris in the hands of his enemies he is known as the king of Bourges
Jan Zizka wins a series of victories against papal armies, using the mobile barricade which becomes known as his 'war wagon fortress'
Henry VI, son of Henry V and Catherine of France, is king of England and theoretically king of France before his first birthday
1423
Masaccio paints some of the frescoes in the chapel of a Florentine silk merchant, Felice Brancacci, in Santa Maria del Carmine
c. 1425
Packs of tarot playing cards are among the most popular products of Europe's first printing presses
c. 1427
A Portuguese captain, sailing for Henry the Navigator, chances upon the Azores
1428
A peasant girl, Joan of Arc, hears the voices of saints urging her to relieve the siege of Orléans
1429
Joan of Arc wins her way into the presence of Charles VII at Chinon and persuades him, eventually, to trust her
Joan of Arc leads French forces in the successful relief of Orléans
Joan of Arc stands nearby while Charles VII is anointed at Reims, then kneels before him and for the first time calls him her king
1430
Joan of Arc is captured in a skirmish with the Burgundians, who subsequently hand her over to the English
Work begins in Florence on Brunelleschi's Pazzi chapel, which encapsulates in miniature the new ideals of Renaissance architecture
Robert Campin, also known as the Master of Flémalle, brings to Flemish painting a natural and everyday quality which is entirely new
1431
Joan of Arc, tried by the Inquisition on behalf of the English in Rouen, is burned at the stake as a relapsed heretic
1432
A new altarpiece is installed in the cathedral in Ghent, introducing the powerful realism of Jan van Eyck
1433
The Compacts of Prague, agreed with the papacy in 1433, allow the Hussite laity to receive the sacrament in both kinds
Cosimo de' Medici, arrested by a rival faction, escapes with his life thanks to bribes and well-placed friends
1434
Giovanni Arnolfini, a merchant from Lucca trading in Bruges, commissions from van Eyck a portrait of himself and his wife
1435
Chancellor Nicolas Rolin, of Burgundy, commissions an altarpiece from Jan van Eyck
Rogier van der Weyden, the third in the extraordinary trio of Flemish artists of the 1430s, is appointed painter to the city of Brussels
1436
Perspective fascinates Italian Renaissance painters after the publication of Alberti's treatise on the subject, De Pictura
1437
Charles VII enters Paris, marking conclusively the end of the French civil war
On the death of his father, James I, James II becomes king of Scotland
1438
The office of Holy Roman emperor becomes a hereditary title within the Habsburg dynasty
The French clergy pass a resolution at Bourges, limiting the power of the papacy within France, which is adopted by the king as a 'pragmatic sanction'
The Byzantine emperor John Palaeologus and the Patriarch of Constantinople, Joasaph, arrive in Ferrara to attend a council of the Roman Catholic church
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - R. Sale - 18-01-2021
There are two aspects of origination that need to be separated. One is the physical origination of the Voynich Manuscript itself, where and when was it made. The other aspect is the ideological origination of the content, as primarily interpreted from the illustrations. While it is more 'convenient' when these two aspects are closely proximal, that is not necessarily true, when retelling history etc. And regarding location, if you can find an Irish monk in St. Gall, then it's difficult to require further restrictions.
Of course history matters, but I'm looking at this more as an example of Social Media: 1400. Covering 1400-1450 roughly and therefore including all of the single source interpretation from the C-14 dating. What the artist conveys is influenced by what the artist knows. What did the VMs artist know? The interpretation of the reader is influenced by what the reader knows. Does the reader know Social Media: 1400?
In astronomy, that would include the VMs cosmos and the comparative illustrations of BNF Fr. 565 and Harley 334. It's quite a distinctive cosmic structure sourced to Paris. C. 1410 and 1430s. This opens a door to VMs
interpretation. It reveals in small parts, what the VMs artist knows as their Social Media: 1400. It also further reveals the extent of ambiguity available for disguise in VMs illustrations.
Intentional obfuscation is also created through the use of combined images. The VMs artist has combined a pair of images in several illustrations; the cosmos, the mermaid, and Virgo.
The VMs cosmos combines Oresme and Shirakatsi.
The VMs mermaid combines the bestiary type of illustration showing a generic mermaid among other sea-creatures with the mermaid replaced by the Luxembourgian mermaid version of Melusine. (Harley 334 second connection)
And add VMs Virgo as the combination of an astrological Virgo with the image of the Virgin Mary standing on a crescent moon.
What is seen here shows just the most obvious examples. The VMs artist is clearly playing tricks with Social Media: 1400. The ability of this technique to deter interpretive resolution speaks for itself. It's the same sort of 'free association' thinking that was used in heraldic canting. And the VMs uses that too. Things are disguised. They are hidden; they are altered, they are obfuscated, but they are not removed, and critical factors (color, position, structure) are not altered, according to the traditions of Social Media: 1400.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Mark Knowles - 18-01-2021
I am keen actually to stay away from the Voynich directly. This may seem strange as this is the topic of the forum. The reason I say this is that I don't want the many different interpretations of the Voynich to affect the view of history of the period. We do not know what the Voynich says, so we do not know which historical events may have impacted the Voynich and its author, so that is why I think the general history of the period is worth looking at.
If one believes that the Voynich is Spanish in origin then the events of Spanish history become particularly important. Alternatively, if one believes the Voynich is Lithuanian in origin then the events of Spanish history would seem pretty irrelevant. So I am inclined to approach the history in general terms rather than with a view to a specific analysis of the manuscript.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - R. Sale - 18-01-2021
Mark,
All these historical events are equivalent without a second screening criterion.
Let's say, as others have said, that the VMs critter, and the one companion of the VMs mermaid might be 'lampooned' representations of the emblem from the Burgundian Order of the Golden Fleece. This assumption provides a specific filter for a further investigation.
The pairing validates the requirement of Deuteronomy, much used in the VMs.
EDIT:
Letters that cross in the email.
Even with a limited frame, the number of individual events is highly expandable. I recommend Richard Vaughan's book on Philip the Good, if you like.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Mark Knowles - 18-01-2021
(18-01-2021, 09:29 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark,
All these historical events are equivalent without a second screening criterion.
Let's say, as others have said, that the VMs critter, and the one companion of the VMs mermaid might be 'lampooned' representations of the emblem from the Burgundian Order of the Golden Fleece. This assumption provides a specific filter for a further investigation.
The pairing validates the requirement of Deuteronomy, much used in the VMs.
EDIT:
Letters that cross in the email.
Even with a limited frame, the number of individual events is highly expandable. I recommend Richard Vaughan's book on Philip the Good, if you like.
I don't think a second screening criterion is required. I think it is fine if these historical events are treated as equivalents. By applying a second criterion you introduce a bias that is necessarily centred around someone's interpretation, which is not known to be correct. I am keen to stand back and look at the time and place of the Voynich in broad terms without the bias of speculative theories of the manuscript.
Imagine that you had been approached by a publisher and offered $10 million to write a book on European history from 1404 to 1438, with no reference to the Voynich manuscript as such. What would you write about in the book? (In case the question becomes how long is the book? Then let's say of a standard length, not multiple volumes or a single page. And, no, I do not need someone to provide the full text of the book, this is merely presented as a point of reference.)
(Yes, of course I recognise that there were effectively an infinite number of events in this timescale and therefore for a complete description one would have to listed all events down to shifting of a grain of sand. However I would ask the reader to exercise common sense in interpreting the purpose of the question raised.)
I think Philip the Good deserves mention amongst other historical leaders.
RE: Historically significant events in Europe between 1404 and 1438 - Mark Knowles - 19-01-2021
Off the top of head I would mention the following historical figures:
Antipope Felix V who was also Amadeus VII Duke of Savoy.
Cosimo de Medici
Giovanni Maria Visconti Duke of Milan
Filippo Maria Visconti Duke of Milan
Alfonso V of King of Aragon, Sardinia, Sicily and Corsica.
Paolo Guinigi Lord of Lucca
Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund, King of Hungary and King of the Germans
Doge of Venice Michele Steno
Doge of Venice Tommaso Mocenigo
Doge of Venice Francesco Foscari