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The Arma Christi [General discussion] - Printable Version

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RE: The Arma Christi - nablator - 08-08-2019

(08-08-2019, 05:48 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's certainly interesting, but so far I really don't know what to think about it.

It may be too easy to play the "it sort of looks like" game, with all the variation in shape... the VMS being such a trap for confirmation bias... independent validation is needed.

With roots:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. rope
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. crown of thorns
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. pincers
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. dice

RE: The Arma Christi - -JKP- - 09-08-2019

(08-08-2019, 11:47 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(08-08-2019, 05:48 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's certainly interesting, but so far I really don't know what to think about it.

It may be too easy to play the "it sort of looks like" game with the roots, with all the variation in shape....
14r: rope
29v: crown of thorns
51r: pincers
53r: dice

Even before the Alma Christi threads, it had occurred to me that 29v might be crown of thorns, and I'm sure 14r looks like a rope to many people, but the idea that 53r might be dice never occurred to me and yet now... I'm willing to consider it.

RE: The Arma Christi - arca_libraria - 09-08-2019

Jumping in at the deep end ... I honestly don’t know what to think, but when in doubt add manuscripts!

Here are some more arma christi rolls in the British Library 

BL Add MS 22029 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BL Add MS 32006 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BL Add MS 88929 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BL Egerton MS 3044 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BL Harley CH 43 A 14 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BL Harley Roll T 11 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

And some codices with arma christi imagery in the BL
BL Egerton MS 1070 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (arma christi f. 103r, also has a calendar and is generally beautiful - I love the angels with the ropes of border decoration at the bottom of some of the pages)
BL Harley MS 2985 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (arma christi 140v)

RE: The Arma Christi - Koen G - 09-08-2019

Thanks, arca! Those are quite interesting.

Looking through Add MS 88929, I found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. quite revealing. I was suspecting those huge flowers with wide open tops referred to events in the sky. I thought You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. meant the eclipse, but this looks better, it's the wound held by angels in a cloudy frame. Ascension?

I read that to enhance the physicality of the Wound on parchment, they would sometimes make an actual hole. This may be what happened in the VM.

   


Nablator: the rope and pincers are great finds, I hadn't thought about that. I had been looking for the crown of thorns and considered You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but wasn't sure. If JKP thinks the same, it's probably a safe bet.

RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion] - bi3mw - 09-08-2019

Another illustration of Arma Christi ( with description ):
[Image: arma_christi_01.jpg]
Morgan Library, MS H3, France, Paris, ca. 1490, prayer book, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

... and as text decoration
[Image: arma_christi_02.jpg]
Morgan Library, MS M.754, France, Saint-Omer, 1320 - 1329, Book of Hours, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion] - Helmut Winkler - 09-08-2019

No offnce meant, but I have some difficulties in seeing the Arma Christi in the B. 408 plants.

Just to mention it, the earliest AChr are in the Utrecht Psalter , f. 12r
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: The Arma Christi - nablator - 09-08-2019

(09-08-2019, 08:46 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I read that to enhance the physicality of the Wound on parchment, they would sometimes make an actual hole. This may be what happened in the VM.

About the 5 wounds, they were sometimes represented as flowers (red roses). Either among the other Arma Christi (they are part of the list): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (14th century)

or alone: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (15th century) as in the signaculum Dei symbol (decorative pavement at château des Rochers-Sévigné, 15th century):

   

Is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. close enough?

RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion] - bi3mw - 09-08-2019

(09-08-2019, 04:15 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No offnce meant, but I have some difficulties in seeing the Arma Christi in the B. 408 plants.
....
At some point you have to be careful that the expectations do not prevail. Objectivity in observation is particularly important here.

RE: The Arma Christi - -JKP- - 09-08-2019

(09-08-2019, 08:46 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks, arca! Those are quite interesting.


Looking through Add MS 88929, I found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. quite revealing. I was suspecting those huge flowers with wide open tops referred to events in the sky. I thought You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. meant the eclipse, but this looks better, it's the wound held by angels in a cloudy frame. Ascension?

I read that to enhance the physicality of the Wound on parchment, they would sometimes make an actual hole. This may be what happened in the VM.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=3129]




I think this might be a Bingo, Koen.

It has all the major elements...
  • rays,
  • a mandorla shape (which is not a shape typical to flowers),
  • concentric layers/rows of nebuly-like shapes in shades of blue (not a scalloped cloudband or the double-infurled style, but cloudbands DID vary and this is within the general form that was sometimes used, even if slightly on the flowery side).
And what you mentioned about the hole, I can corroborate from another angle...
  • The hole is in a place that these mandorla often had worn spots or holes because people would kiss them in the same manner as kissing the center of a cross (this is still done in certain orthodox churches). So it wouldn't surprise me if they became so accustomed to the idea of a hole there (and the analogy to the wound) that they would deliberately use or make a hole.

.
This indicates a significant level of planning. But the whole VMS strikes me that way anyway—careful, patient (except for painter #2, the sloppy painter). It's part of the reason I blogged about the traditional quilts from east India. Most people would probably wonder what that could possibly have to do with the VMS, but it wasn't just the patterns that were remarkably similar (the textural ones), but also the way things are put together, and the time and effort it takes to plan and execute them reminded me of certain aspects of the VMS.

RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion] - Koen G - 09-08-2019

I think you're right nablator. For those "in the know", this folio would have been an in-your-face representation of the wounds. If you look into the four petioles, you can even see that they have been enhanced with the wound pattern.

   

I also add the flower from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where you saw the "dice" root. It always looked like buildings to me, so it might be the city (Jerusalem?) that's sometimes in the background. Again it was the samen scroll, Add MS 88929.