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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Davidsch - 05-05-2017
Two years ago I thought so too.
But we'll see.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
This reads like grammar have fun guys!
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LARGE OUTER RING: ABCDEFGILMNPOQRSTUXV1234
SMALL INNER RING: ZANIHGMLEY&RPTFSVOCDUBXQ
INITIAL SHIFT=1
PERIOD INCREMENT = 1
PERIOD LENGTH = 1
![[Image: f7v.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/f7v.png)
![[Image: albertivoycirpher15.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/albertivoycirpher15.png)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
(05-05-2017, 09:22 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.David,
Friedman and Tiltman looked at this one *very* intensively, in the case of W. Friedman at least four decades.
In any case, it is obvious that the Voynich MS is not the product of an Alberti wheel cipher.
This simply does not generate the word patterns from a text that doesn't have them in the first place.
Worse, like other poly-alphabetic ciphers, it causes the same plain text word type to be translated into different cipher text words, depending on where they occur in the text. It flattens out the Zipf curve.
Its rare when a vord will share two different Latin words and the nightmare about this cipher is not just the rotation but the glyph interwoven keys so that it looks as though the text is meaningless when its not.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
(05-05-2017, 08:25 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar man... in your video you show off your books, one says that the VM is in Latin, the other in Middle English and the third in Welsh, and you don't see a problem with that?
Also, the Venus Flytrap is an American plant.
There's two problems with your current cipher.
- You seem to think that a cipher being complex will make it more likely. The exact opposite is true. The Voynich is a very large text, several orders of magnitude longer than any other enciphered medieval message. Hence, the more complex a cipher becomes, the smaller the likelihood of its having been used. Given the size of the Voynich, we must almost expect that someone could read it like a plain text without needing any method of deciphering.
- By assigning most Voynich glyphs to several letters on your wheel, you turn it into a one-way cipher.
If you don't fall off your horse and dust yourself off to ride again then you never learn. Those books led me here. The cipher is not a one way, It is possible for you to use the same cipher keys for Latin words which I have chosen say for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and your translation would be the same so how would you explain that?
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 05-05-2017
Yes, it's one way. The encoding will always be the same but the decoding is impossible because you get many options. So just like with your previous cipher, you have turned this into a one-way cipher which will allow you to read whatever you want.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
(05-05-2017, 12:16 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, it's one way. The encoding will always be the same but the decoding is impossible because you get many options. So just like with your previous cipher, you have turned this into a one-way cipher which will allow you to read whatever you want.
I agree to disagree there is a probability factor of who knows what that you decode with the same VMS glyphs! Therefore, you are entirely wrong, but what's the probability of that, can you measure it? What is at hand here is developing a Latin corpus that follows grammar and then try these words in other folios and if music happens then we can sing. Say you take You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and apply some of those words to other folios then see if it retains syntax that is what I'm after. Koen thanks for your interest!
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Davidsch - 05-05-2017
Tom, what you created looks very plausible. Perhaps you could expand the possibilities for the ring a bit, let's say to 16 letters each?
Over and autum.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
(05-05-2017, 01:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tom, what you created looks very plausible. Perhaps you could expand the possibilities for the ring a bit, let's say to 16 letters each?
Over and autum.
David I believe the maniac who created this cipher was paranoid, perhaps a high ranking General or Roman Bishop. The reading for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. makes me believe he was a bored depressed man knowing what he was doing was not Godly but he held on to the world a bit to much.
I developed this cipher based on Gemini for the o's looked fishy to me about how they were spaced. I realize the oddity of the voynich o and its abundance in the VMS. If they map to many letters which is high then the only choice is a shift 1, next shift 2, next shift 3 and so on.
Thanks for the advice but I'm not changing this Rainbow not for a second
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 05-05-2017
It looks like a jumble of common words slung together somewhat randomly, mixed in with some that look like words but are not.
It doesn't make any grammatical sense. You could do the same with English or most other languages and it would superficially look like language without actually meaning anything.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 06-05-2017
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LARGE OUTER RING: ABCDEFGILMNPOQRSTUXV1234
SMALL INNER RING: ZANIHGMLEY&RPTFSVOCDUBXQ
INITIAL SHIFT=1
PERIOD INCREMENT = 1
PERIOD LENGTH = 1
Praeda ter atrox alias doleo ni autem noscere nemo ve autem iste est autem vis ve vi copia ditia
lucis fui se se suo merx et voro ni inuicem occer talis mors ob uti sum vitae iam diu autem condo merx aurae
Illa uero caeleste ob autem mi sum sum curo cum urbanitas naturae operae obvia iam iam suo quod invitus praefecti defeci lux curae autem ob vita actus malum suo item ni iam autem
Ciphered Text for above 1st line Latin words in order from left to right: Use decoder for this!
PVIEEM OMO A&&HU HFREO RY ADDEF RFCMYUR RMPV UM ADDEF EODE GOD ADDEF UYC UM UY IFFRG HYDRG
Latin translated to English:
1.[font=Times New Roman] [/font]Property taken in war, often savage, at another time be in pain but however examine all or however this to exist however strength or force supplies riches life to exist himself herself one’s own goods and eat greedily not alternately to harrow thus death therefore how to exist life be at the moment by day however lay up goods in heaven
2.[font=Times New Roman] [/font]That in truth of heaven therefore however I exist to exist as a living in the city to rise to work so as to meet now at the moment one’s own that reluctant commander lost life trouble however therefore life of plunder morally wrong one’s own likewise not in the moment however
What I have demonstrated here is how the VMS could have been encoded and I show a Latin decipherment to English which is coherent. To all those in the camp who believe the VMS is meaningless, this simple experiment proves you wrong! This cipher avoid’s frequency attacks for a possible decryption. It also makes glyphs in the VMS pointless to attack, because of glyph’s many variable options for what it should be in that vord.
I understand Koen’s objection that he thinks this is a one way cipher, for its hard for two different people working remotely from each other to come up with the same vord for encryption but it is possible they do hit the same key, so that is why it’s not a one way cipher and a candidate for decoding the VMS. A computer can run all the possible keys which make Latin words from VMS glyphs and then humans could apply it to the VMS corpus to see if the words make sense.
This cipher is extremely random and if you use it on another language with different glyph notation you would make a new uncrack able VMS for that language. Just try it and don’t give out the shift and cipher wheels. J