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+--- Thread: Why and how the text could be Bavarian (/thread-5312.html)
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - ololololo - 14-07-2026
(14-07-2026, 11:53 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, can you name one for me?This is supported by statistical analyses such as latent semantic analysis. This is if we don't stick to theories at all. The fact of reproducibility doesn't give us anything. We don't know what's behind the words, and if we can reproduce this text by simply copying parts of the words, it doesn't tell us anything.
From the point of view of my theory, this is unlikely to be a self-quotation, because a cipher based on Roman numerals produces similar text without losing its meaning.
I'm not good at arguments, but you shouldn't think that your theory is the ONLY ONE that explains the manuscript.
If you want to prove the truth of this theory, prove it by action - reproduce the text, decipher it, etc. Proving that it's not a hoax doesn't prove your theory.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 14-07-2026
okay, so: No.
[quote]
Proving that it's not a hoax doesn't prove your theory.
[/qoute]
??? I would never say something like that???? That's illogica - not everything that's green is grass...
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - ololololo - 14-07-2026
(14-07-2026, 12:20 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.okay, so: No.As you know best
(14-07-2026, 12:20 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would never say something like that????It seems like you think it's more important to refute the hoax theory than to prove or apply your own.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 14-07-2026
(14-07-2026, 12:21 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems like you think it's more important to refute the hoax theory than to prove or apply your own.
The part about the hoax and the refutations was meant as a response and a defense, to show that I can also argue from a completely different angle. That has to be read in context—sorry.
The VBM is, first and foremost, a structural cipher possibility that can explain many of the oddities of the VMS.
But at the same time—and incidentally—it also refutes the arguments that the VMS cannot be based on any language.
It’s not a solution yet, and it’s not certain which language lies behind it; Bairish could very well be it, but it doesn’t have to be.
In his core it’s just a different interpretation of the word boundaries, and from that emerges a possible cipher.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - ololololo - 14-07-2026
(14-07-2026, 12:30 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay(14-07-2026, 12:21 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems like you think it's more important to refute the hoax theory than to prove or apply your own.
The part about the hoax and the refutations was meant as a response and a defense, to show that I can also argue from a completely different angle. That has to be read in context—sorry.
The VBM is, first and foremost, a structural cipher possibility that can explain many of the oddities of the VMS.
But at the same time—and incidentally—it also refutes the arguments that the VMS cannot be based on any language.
It’s not a solution yet, and it’s not certain which language lies behind it; Bairish could very well be it, but it doesn’t have to be.
In his core it’s just a different interpretation of the word boundaries, and from that emerges a possible cipher.
But this doesn't make the theory any better or more accurate...
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 14-07-2026
(14-07-2026, 01:46 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But this doesn't make the theory any better or more accurate...That is right, but it's actually the other way around:
A theory has to be able to do all of that to even have a chance of being considered a theory... and the vast majority of theories can't even do that much. But the VBM
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 19-07-2026
Another statistic that can be explained by the VBM
Background: I came across the following because I wanted to verify whether the aiin family actually encodes endings like "en" in German.
Hypothesis: If the “aiin” ending corresponds to endings in the German language, such as “en,” then theoretically it can also be formed using the “E” of the vowel bridge ="y[space]qo" followed by a coded consonant cluster.
Assumption: Since the “aiin” family appears with varying frequency across the individual sections and in Currier A / B, the question arises as to whether this alters the frequency of "y[space]qo" = "E" which would be an indication supporting the hypothesis that the “aiin” family encodes German endings like En.
In short:
A low frequency of “aiin” should lead to an excessive frequency of "y[space]qo", and vice versa.
To get straight to the point: This is exactly what the data show.
The Measurement
The sum is not universal but is grouped into two text-type levels: The sections Herbal A, Herbal B, Pharma average around ~15; the sections Balneo, Stars average around ~23,6. (This two-level division is interesting in itself, and there are reasons for it, but that would take us too far afield here.)
More importantly: Within a given level, the two groups swap places.
The clearest example is Balneo versus Stars, since both have nearly identical sums (23,85 vs. 23,62) but a very opposite distribution:
Balneo routes the material predominantly through the y[space]qo bridge (18,05) and only slightly through the aiin ending (5,81); Stars does exactly the opposite (11,92 / 11,70).
Same total amount, different distribution!
Herbal-A versus the rest shows a slightly weaker version of this same
opposite relationship within the 15th level.
This gives us another statistical peculiarity that can be explained relatively easily using the VBM. Since no one has apparently tested "aiin" against "y[space]qo" yet, I’ll go out on a limb and say that this statistical anomaly is new. (but i checked it: Emma May Smith has discovered something similar, but of course without the vowel bridge
.)If "aiin" and "y[space]qo" should encode different things, one has to ask why their sum should remain constant while the respective parts fluctuate so greatly - difficult...
Jost
(Note: And since I've been writing for weeks that y[space]qo = e, and aiin is probably a German ending like en, this isn't some neatly defined finding that came up later either.)
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - tavie - 19-07-2026
And what are the reasons that you may be wrong?
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 19-07-2026
Of course, there could be other reasons that I’m not aware of.
The interpretation itself is, of course, still hypothetical, too. I assume that “aiin” could stand for “-en” and that “y[space]qo” could stand for “e,” but neither of these values has been proven by plaintext so far.
Since y and qo have an extremely strong bond, it could, of course, apply only to qo or y alone, without space.
So this is merely another meaningful compatibility test for the VBM, not proof of the VBM. The model provides a concrete explanation for the anomaly.
The many tests here are not about individual cases, but rather about the now considerable number of statistical peculiarities that can be very easily explained by the VBM. That is what makes this theory unique—not the individual tests. In my opinion, that’s the amazing part of it.
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian - JoJo_Jost - 20-08-2026
Only a short update:
As I haven’t written anything here for a while, here’s a quick update on the Vowel Bridge Model (VBM).
I am currently working on a generator for the Vowel-Bridge Model (VBM) and have already derived a cipher that is plausible for the Middle Ages and which can describe the VMS to 80 per cent. A small part of the cipher is still missing (particularly the LAAFU effects).
I can generate texts that come near to the VMS, but that isn't enough for me. Sometimes the various entropies were right, sometimes the Zipf curve, sometimes the word lengths, sometimes the repetition rates and the hapax rates, etc., but taken all together, it somehow fell short.
What is certain is that, among the best-known European languages, MHD / Bavarian, when used with the VBM, provide the best fit for the Voynich Manuscript.
And then I realised that the VBM is highly text-sensitive. Different texts produce very different results when run through the same generator. The hapax rate alone varies significantly from text to text.
So at the moment I’m trying to see whether the values can be optimised by adapting the text to the VBM in relation to the Voynich manuscript.
I’ve been pondering for some time whether this is a valid approach, but actually it’s quite clear: we don’t know which text lies at the heart of the matter; if the text can have such a strong impact when encoded in a cipher, then naturally one must also select a suitable text.
I hope the logic is accepted
. Because it is, after all, a proof of concept based on the question: Is it possible, using the VBM and a cipher typical of the Middle Ages, to generate a VMS text that can reproduce a large proportion of the characteristics typical of VMS? That would thus prove that VMS can be based on plaintext.
No more, no less.
At this stage, I can say: yes, that is probably possible. But as for how close I’ll get to that....
I’m working on it...