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+--- Thread: Month names collection / metastudy (/thread-4751.html)
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 30-06-2026
(30-06-2026, 12:25 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.* I do not think the VM septēb' can be "septembris", since there is no reason to use a Latin genitive here. The 9 other month names are nominative. I personally don't think we should assume that it develops to anything other than "septembre". Any argument based on another form would be extremely speculative, given the full sequence.
I'm pretty sure i've seen 'bris' endings as headers/titles frequently. Unless i'm mistaking what counts as nominative? One example from 1520: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Is this an example of the genitive(?) form being used incorrectly, or is it an example of the 'bris' endings being the nominative? (or something else) I'm really not well versed on different grammar cases.
I'm almost certain there are more examples of this, including ones where the 'bri'/'ber' forms were mixed during the sequence.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 30-06-2026
Those are genitives used correctly. Notice the large "KL", that stands for the kalends, i.e. the first days of the months. So it says "KL of March", of September...
When you write only the month name as a label, like in the VM, you can expect the nominative. And indeed, nominatives is what we get.
We can force English a bit to illustrate this. Imagine that instead of "the first of December", we would use the genitive and say "December's first". The existence of this form "December's" doesn't mean that it works as a standalone label. The same is true for Latin forms.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - MarcoP - 30-06-2026
For the genitive, I think one would expect KL Marcii, as the occurrence at the bottom, not Marcius.
But I agree that Septembris makes sense as a genitive here
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 30-06-2026
(30-06-2026, 02:38 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For the genitive, I think one would expect KL Marcii, as the occurrence at the bottom, not Marcius.
But I agree that Septembris makes sense as a genitive here
I was looking at the other forms in the MS, most of which follow the "KL genitive" formula: julii, junii, februarii and all the -bris months. The genitive of Aprilis is identical to the nominative.
In practice, Latin month names appear in the genitive very often: the month of..., the 6th day of... So I understand why this can be confusing, as it must have been to some medieval scribes.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 30-06-2026
That's why I put the martius screenshot there
This is fine if it's the case, and I genuinely don't mean to argue, but why do almost identical manuscripts use september too?
The entries with "Bildungscampus Nürnberg, Cent." in them have a bunch of these almost identical calenders.
Cent. III, 87: martius, aprilis, maius, junius, julius, augustus, september, october, nouember, december
Cent. VII, 18: martius, aprilis, mayus, junius, julius, augustus, septembris, octobris, nouemb', decembris
What is causing these forms to change here?
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 30-06-2026
My impression, but I would certainly appreciate Marco's input on this one, is the following:
"KL" wants to be followed by a genitive form (month's kalend)
"... habet dies xxx" wants to be preceded by a nominative form (month name as subject)
So the month name is squished into two different formulae, one of which wants a genitive and the other a nominative. So depending on the scribe, they may end up with nominatives, genitives or a mix of both.
Essential for our purpose here is that the context (other words) demands the genitive. If my understanding of the examples you posted is correct, they even suffer from the effects of a double, conflicting context. In the VM, there is no context, only the month name as a label. There is no other text to provoke the use of a genitive.
Also, crucially, the VM forms look like nominative forms, and there is not a single one with a preferential reading as a genitive in Latin or German.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - MarcoP - 30-06-2026
I agree with Koen's point of view.
We can say that some scribes were confused about the best Latin case to use.
We can also say that there doesn't seem to be this kind of confusion with the Voynich month labels, which look more vernacular than Latin (and appear to be problematic, but in their own way).
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 30-06-2026
That makes a lot of sense, ty both.
Out of interest, when looking for the 're' endings in german text (either french re, or a unique nominative latin 're'), what would be things to look out for?
Properly standalone labels/titles like "Septembre" at the top of a page would be one, I assume. And in the bulk of the text, would we be looking for clear cases like: "Der septembre"? Like "Der septembre hat XXX tag..". Are there any other common sentence structures that would indicate a use of the nominative case?
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Bernd - 30-06-2026
There are numerous Latin September entries in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Especially in the Pulkava Chronik (Cgm 1112, BSB München).
This manuscript is a German transcription of a Latin document, so Latin dates are not unexpected.
Septembre
anno domini XII C vnd XXXVI jar starb Johannes, byschoue tzu Prag XVII kalendas Septembre
anno domini XII C vnd LXIX iar yst geporenn dem kunig Ottakaro ein tochter none Septembre
Septembri
anno domini XII C vnd LXXVI jare von dem moned Septembri sendet der romisch kunig Rudolphus zu Ottakaro
Anno domini XII C vnd LVII iare in Septembri Przemysel
Rat. anno domini XI C XVIII iar in dem moned Septembri
Septembris
yst geschehen anno domini myllesimo XXXVIII kalendas IX. Septembris.
geschehen noch Cristi gepurt XII C vnd XII jare, des moned Septembris
Burckardus byschoue starb Ydus Septembris
in dem selben jare VI kalendas Septembris yst erwelet worden zu eim romischen kung Rudolfus
Anno domini XIII C vnd ein iare Ydus Septembris starb Gregorius
wenn von dem tage als von VIII kalendas Augusti, vnd tzu der kalendas Septembris setzen wir ein zeyt zu kumen der iunckfrawen
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 30-06-2026
All in genitive context, if I'm not mistaken.