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+--- Thread: Month names collection / metastudy (/thread-4751.html)
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 24-06-2026
(23-06-2026, 11:49 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oswald Lieder (OVW)
...
Reinfried von Braunschweig (RVBR)
...
Der Schulmeister von Esslingen (SVE)
...
Der heilige Georg (GRG)
...
Flore und Blanscheflur (FLO)
...
Minnereden Band 2 (MR2)
The above have been added, so far. This is a good line of searching by the way. For example, the 'Oswald von Wolkenstein' poem happens to be a couple of pages before a work listing all of the months, so that one search turned into two full sequences. (note that although they are the same work with the sameish sequence, some of the spelling varies between them)
(24-06-2026, 11:20 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Neither in his region nor time. He just diligently copied an older work - and its much more ancient language. To test this hypothesis, we'd have to look into the creation dates and places of the texts themselves to see if they correlate better with certain spelling variants of month names.
This is certainly at play, as copies of works tend to have similar spellings as eachother, but those copies of the same work do differ quite often. Considering we also have attested "aberel","abrill","abrell" as headers in calendars in the 15thC, it is probably the case that many of these dialectal forms persisted for a longer time. It's probably very similar to 'octembre'; it was more commonly seen in the 13th and 14th centuries, but was used in the 15th century.
(23-06-2026, 11:49 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Virginal (VIR)
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dâ was von wurzen ein gesmac,
alsô abrelle und merze
waeren dâ mit voller bluot.
For the life of me I can't find this one. It's supposedly in these:
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An interesting one:
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Hans Zukunft, Das goldene Jahr (from your Minnereden Band 2 (MR2))
1450AD, Swabia
mertzen
abrellen
may
jonius
julius
ögst
september
/
/
Jonius for june
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Bernd - 24-06-2026
(24-06-2026, 12:06 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Strange. But this is why it's so important to check each claim.(23-06-2026, 11:49 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Virginal (VIR)For the life of me I can't find this one. It's supposedly in these:
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dâ was von wurzen ein gesmac,
alsô abrelle und merze
waeren dâ mit voller bluot.
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If it helps, the exact location is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Stanza 437, Row 10
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437 1 Der Berner sprach" vil schoene magt,
2 du hâst gewalt: swaz dir behagt,
3 daz schrîp nâch dîme muote. "
4 diu maget gie dô al zehant,
5 dâ se ein getriuwen boten vant.
6 sî brâhte in zuo der huote
7 dâ der Berner inne lac.
8 dâ branten schoene kerzen,
9 dâ was von wurzen ein gesmac,
10 alsô abrelle und merze
11 waeren dâ mit voller bluot.
12 sî tete im dâ noch dienstes mê,
13 durch daz er waere baz gemuot.
438 1 Diu maget den boten niht erliez,
2 mit triuwen sî in sitzen hiez
3 und sprach vil wunnenclîche
4 " mîn sundervriunt vil tugenthaft,
5 du wirp mir eine botschaft,
6 wiltu sîn guotes rîche.
The reference says that the complete manuscripts are independent textual versions which stories differ significantly.
I checked MARS which yields a lot of entries, but unsurprisingly all of them deal with the planet or the god, not the month.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 24-06-2026
Yeah, i tried to find stanza 437 but couldn't. Looking for ögst might be a good lead. Every ögst has been an interesting manuscript so far. Brachet, Brachat, prachet, prachat tend to be interesting sequences too. Honestly, looking for sept,oct,nov,dec with re endings would also be interesting. Augst is crazy common, along with may, so it's the other months that are important.
Also:
(23-06-2026, 11:49 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.ze ûz gândem aberellen.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
'in dem aberillen'
This is certainly why we check
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Koen G - 24-06-2026
(24-06-2026, 12:06 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An interesting one:
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Hans Zukunft, Das goldene Jahr (from your Minnereden Band 2 (MR2))
1450AD, Swabia
jonius
julius
Jonius for june
Strange, I went to double check and it clearly says "jonius" indeed.
Across the French and German examples, I count about 8 instances where we get "o" in June but not in July. While the phenomenon overall can only be described as very rare, I feel like there should be a reason why June is more susceptible.
In Latin, the difference between Iūnius and Iūlius is just the middle consonant, n/l. Was Iulius more anchored because of Caesar? I'd imagine that association is lost soon enough, but maybe not when one is used to the vernacular names and still sees June and July as Latin words?
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Bernd - 24-06-2026
(24-06-2026, 01:12 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yeah, i tried to find stanza 437 but couldn't.I wouldn't know how to search Cod. Pal. germ. 324 except manually reading through hundreds of pages...
(24-06-2026, 01:12 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Weird, the text differs slightly. In this line and 8 lines above
'in dem aberillen'
This is certainly why we check
8779 den fürsten einen hof sprach -> einen hoff den fürsten allen sprach
Means the transliteration was done from another manuscript, and the scribes did slightly vary month names when copying. Good find!
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 24-06-2026
Added:
Gottfried von Straßburg (MGS)
Lanzelet (LZ)
Heinrich von Veldeke (MHV)
Cannot find in the manuscripts:
Parzival (PZ)
Der Jüngere Titurel (JT)
Not digitised (i think unless you buy it for $100):
Mönch von Salzburg (Weltliche Lieder) (MSW)
I left out the entries without a b in april as it's too time consuming to scour the manuscripts this way for common sequences. Curse the people that decided to only index these things by "paragraphs" and "stanzas" instead of pages/lines! But all in all, it's a good haul.
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There are 3 entries that ended up being from the same manuscript/hand in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but they're on there seperately right now as I don't know whether the differences were of the writer, or of the different works he copied (if he copied them).
But a single hand wrote:
abrelle, aberelle, and ab'elle (which could be either)
meien, meie
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Edit: Just realised we now technically have entries for both 'octembre' and 'aberil(len)' only ~120km/~75miles from eachother: Metz and Strasbourg.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Zauriek - 24-06-2026
(24-06-2026, 03:27 PM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But a single hand wrote:Oh man, that is a lot of variance; Does this mean they did not care about the changes or were they respecting the sources? like "i copied this from 3 diferent works where each one had its own dialect." Or "this sounds kinda the same so it should be fine, everyone can understand this month" or they made soft mistakes and ignore them, is so weird to me.
abrelle, aberelle, and ab'elle (which could be either)
my only hope is that, since the marginalia month names are a personal note the scriba may have used is native language, i mean there is not much reason to copy the month names for a mental note (uncertain about this.) The case would have been diferent if there is more selected text that this scriba had to write over the voynich as some form of glosses (this idea feels a lite bit farfetch tho.) Still hope a exact sequence match can be found, that would be pure gold.
--[this is most probably not relevant but wanted to mention it just in case]
(Francia [Nantes] 1451-1500) ms: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't understand "march" and august and some other letters; october is the latin form? Is confusing to me why they mix two languages french and latin like that.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 25-06-2026
(24-06-2026, 06:29 PM)Zauriek Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand "march" and august and some other letters; october is the latin form? Is confusing to me why they mix two languages french and latin like that.
That's just all latin: martius(or marcius), aprilis, mayus, junius, jullius, augustus, september, october, nouember, december
But i've added it to the latin list anyway
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - Zauriek - 25-06-2026
(25-06-2026, 08:05 AM)eggyk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But i've added it to the latin list anywayThank You eggyk
; i think this task is beyond my skill lvl, gona keep a low profile 
for now.
RE: Month names collection / metastudy - eggyk - 25-06-2026
Here we see the clearest example yet of a french+German mix.
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1463AD, Bavaria N, Bamberg?
Original Author: Ortolfus von Würzburg, aka Ortolf von Baierland ca 13thC
mertzen, mertz,
aprillen, aprill,
mayen, maye,
prachmon, (also junio)
hewmenatt, (also jullio)
augst, augsten,
septembre, (also september, sebtember, ersten herbstmon)
octobre, (also october, ander'n herbstmon)
nouembre, (also dritten herbstmon)
december,
There is also a very similar sequence from SW germany: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which was written in the same time period, also used junio, julio, septembre, and octobre. However, that one used "augusto" and "nouember".