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+--- Thread: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance (/thread-92.html)
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - EllieV - 04-02-2016
(09-01-2016, 10:00 AM)david Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An undeveloped idea, and I only summarise the two arguments here below.The swallowtail merlons point to N. Italy only if one believes that the VMs is created in the first half of the 15th century.
Nick Pelling has suggested that the castle merlons on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are in the Northern Italian medieval "swallow-tail" style - ie, instead of being in the traditional |-| shape, they're in a V shape.
This has helped to shift the production area for the manuscript away from northern Europe to northern Italy instead.
However, the zodiac influence has once again shifted attention back to northern Europe, in particular the French / German border, based on identification of artistic influences from regional calendar and printing in the Voynich (a brief overview You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
So - leaving aside the question of the humanistic cursive script, which in any case appears to have been used all over Europe - how do we reconcile the contradictions?
Well, it strikes me the swallow-tail identification isn't really 100%. For a start, every merlon on that page is swallow-tail - see this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., or this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Surely the simplest explanation here is that, due to the small size of the script, the scribe simply drew the merlons in this fashion without paying any attention to real architecture. After all, why should he have paid any attention to this real life detail, unless it was something important? Far more likely the author wanted to display the merlons to show he was drawing a castle, and simply drew it in this style without even being aware of the difference.
Which means - we can shift the provenance back to northern Europe again.
By the end of the 15th century they were more wide-spread. The fact that the VMs is in cipher points to the end of 15th century when Trithemius was writing his ciphers. The anatomy points to somebody who spent time in the Universities of Ferrara or Padua (not necessary an Italian - German and Swiss physicians also were educated and lectured there) in the late 15th or early 16th century. The women's hairdos point to 1490s court of Maximilian I.
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RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - don of tallahassee - 05-02-2016
May I suggest the three castles in Bellinzona, Switzerland might have had a resemblance to the buildings in the VMS in the early 15th Century (they still do now) and still have swallowtail merlons - always have, I think?
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - EllieV - 05-02-2016
(05-02-2016, 12:01 AM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.May I suggest the three castles in Bellinzona, Switzerland might have had a resemblance to the buildings in the VMS in the early 15th Century (they still do now) and still have swallowtail merlons - always have, I think?
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
The 9-rosette castle has both the swallowtail and the traditional merlons - some old castles have that because they upgraded their walls at some point - the Runkelstein castle for example has both types of merlons. it would have been perfect fit if the tower didn't blow up and take down part of the swallowtail merlons wall :
There is a good chance, if the VMs castle was meant to be a particular castle, that the castle does not survive to this day in the same shape and form. I personally think that the VMs castle is a generic representation of a castle. There is no way to know for sure unless the author wrote about it and could read it
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - don of tallahassee - 05-02-2016
Maybe some Italian speaker could write or email the city engineer and city historian to see if the VMS images bear any resemblance to what would have been seen at the time (circa 1421)? And/or any other places that are deemed good/likely candidates. Maybe the images aren't only pretty pictures, but fairly accurate representations.
Has anyone done this sort of thing? Is this too far out an idea?
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - ReneZ - 05-02-2016
There are still large numbes of castles, including some that do look quite similar to the VMs illustration.
The case of Runkelstein is interesting, as it has a fresco of a castle (not sure if it is supposed to represent itself):
![[Image: 158643603-hunting-scene-by-artists-from-...bRTg%3D%3D]](http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/158643603-hunting-scene-by-artists-from-bolzano-school-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=sqT9Mct2v0wczcomIZe6Vin8FjtQeO5YW00ICgQoNX%2BsFJ%2FyZ5DStNGFZNY6xI8gnfNRxPlQVi2Z6R46TSbRTg%3D%3D)
Another one on this page:
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At my site I have a medieval drawing of a castle and the same castle as it looks now, and the two are not similar, so this type of search may not help us much.
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - EllieV - 05-02-2016
(05-02-2016, 08:17 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are still large numbes of castles, including some that do look quite similar to the VMs illustration.Hi Rene,
The case of Runkelstein is interesting, as it has a fresco of a castle (not sure if it is supposed to represent itself):
Another one on this page:
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At my site I have a medieval drawing of a castle and the same castle as it looks now, and the two are not similar, so this type of search may not help us much.
Here is VoynichAttacks post from 2011 about the Runkelstain castle You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Nice fresco. Here is another one from Runkelstein - this is the front gate wall that was blown off - I don't see a tall tower in it though. I have no idea how that tower looked like. It was an important castle in 15th century.
Here is another fresco - Runkelstein is under attack in this one. We see the traditional square merlons on the back - the new butterfly merlons towards the front. In between the two towers on the sides there is a taller tower in the middle.
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - MarcoP - 05-02-2016
Runkelstein is an interesting parallel! See also this blog post (with more images of frescoes):
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It should be noted that (as the name suggests) Runkelstein is in a German speaking region. Sudtirol makes part of Italy since World War I.
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RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - EllieV - 05-02-2016
(05-02-2016, 10:31 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Runkelstein is an interesting parallel! See also this blog post (with more images of frescoes):
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It should be noted that (as the name suggests) Runkelstein is in a German speaking region. Sudtirol makes part of Italy since World War I.
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Hi Marco, I agree. When we say Germany in relation to the VMs we have to keep in mind that in 15th century the map was different. The VMs may come from a place that is today Italy, Switzerland, Austria or even France (Burgundy for example ended up with the Habsburgs through the marriage of Mary of Burgundy and Maximilian I)
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - Koen G - 30-10-2017
Hmm, I'm surprised that this is the only thread dedicated to the merlons - unless I missed one.
Anyway, I wonder if someone has found out more about this meanwhile? I was just reading the wiki about the 4th crusade when I saw this image of crusaders attacking constantinople.
![[Image: 800px-Crusaders_attack_Constantinople.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Crusaders_attack_Constantinople.jpg/800px-Crusaders_attack_Constantinople.jpg)
Description: Attack of the Crusaders on Constantinople, miniature in a manuscript of 9 La Conquête de Constantinople by Geoffreoy de Villehardouin, Venetian ms.
circa 1330
Bodleian MS. Laud Misc. 587 fol. 1r.
Is there a reason why the scribe would draw such merlonson Constantinople? Or are they meant to repesent the towers around the city?
And might the VM castle also represent a walled city instead of a single castle?
RE: Swallowtail merlons... or provenance - -JKP- - 30-10-2017
Since Ghibelline merlons (as opposed to later decorative swallowtail merlons) had a specific political meaning, the merlons were sometimes used as a symbol of who was fighting whom and for what, just as banners and coats and arms were used to show who was fighting whom in many old medieval drawings.
They weren't always meant to represent a specific building (the merlons only physically existed in the Lombardic northern areas (what is now northern Italy) and, to some extent, in Rhodes (brought there by the Templars). Then they spread to Prague and other parts of the Holy Roman Empire. Now they are everywhere.