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More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Printable Version

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RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Gioynich - 27-07-2025

I think this one is new? Planetenbuch - BSB Cgm 7269
[Image: Screenshot-2025-07-27-at-1-42-09-PM.png]

RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Koen G - 27-07-2025

I've certainly seen it before. 

It's in Marco's collection: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Gioynich - 27-07-2025

(27-07-2025, 10:04 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've certainly seen it before. 

It's in Marco's collection: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Oops, sorry. I am bookmarking Marco's collection and will check next time.

RE: More Germanic influences on the VM zodiac (another crossbow human Sagittarius) - Stefan Wirtz_2 - 13-08-2025

Well, yes.
I am not sure what is meant by the header "More germanic influences..." as I see no proven "influences" by just showing crossbow sagittarii at all. If other "zodiacs" are meant by this title, the influence may not be proved there either.

Finding any crossbow sagittarius in a germanic manuscript is not a proof at all for anything; the artist may have seen this the shown motive on a travel, followed a description or saw such image in another book of far origin.

Using this crossbow guy as a sagittarius sign may proove that this emblem is somehow "modern" (regading the period when crossbows were invented and actively used). The artist does not use someone with bow-and-arrow here, and he waives to draw the quite usual centaur (with bow and arrow) as his "sagittarius".
As many scripts of oriental origin (arab, persian, far-east) prefer to use this centaur as the zodiac sign, this might allow the conclusion that this zodiac is made within europe, even though we find much centaurs as european sagittarii, too.
How can there be any determination to "germanic influence" explicitly..?

If somebody wants to locate this guy to anywhere,

[Image: IMG_1463.jpg?etag=%2210cf82-689ca366%22&...quality=85]

it is not helpful to find other sagittarii, but other crossbow shootists in general:

[Image: IMG_1462.JPG?etag=%22199fa-689ca364%22&s...quality=85]

It is from a work "Kriegstechnik" around 1420-1430, I don't have the exact source as i do not care for the zodiacs. 
The guy in foreground carries a headgear that is a bit reminding of somebody.

[Image: IMG_1461.jpg?etag=%2216ec86-689ca366%22&...quality=85]
Source is noted here.

[Image: IMG_1459.jpg?etag=%22164164-689ca365%22&...quality=85]

Maybe also in the contestor's field.

Others have posted some images for these hats already (french source etc.)

So the main problem would be 
- to proof the origin and authenticy of all images (am not so sure about the 1420-1430 folio)
- that these headgears were the real equiment of the shown figures
- localizing this look to a special country, maybe "germanic" or another.

But as far as I see, this kind of clothing and hat/headgear was distributed throughout several european countries, so there is no way to determine this sagittarius to "German origin" at all.