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[split] Taccola spillover thread - Printable Version

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RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - gerrydelasel - 07-10-2026

(07-10-2026, 07:31 PM)JustAnotherTheory wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But both the bridge scene and the sun face appear nowhere else. Both of these images appear in the VMS.
That's a bold claim. They're vaguely similar, but that's all I see. The sun is quite generic.

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - Koen G - 08-10-2026

(07-10-2026, 09:07 PM)gerrydelasel wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(07-10-2026, 07:31 PM)JustAnotherTheory wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But both the bridge scene and the sun face appear nowhere else. Both of these images appear in the VMS.
That's a bold claim. They're vaguely similar, but that's all I see. The sun is quite generic.

Show me one other sun like that.

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - DG97EEB - 08-10-2026

(08-10-2026, 06:07 AM)Koen G wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(07-10-2026, 09:07 PM)gerrydelasel wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(07-10-2026, 07:31 PM)JustAnotherTheory wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But both the bridge scene and the sun face appear nowhere else. Both of these images appear in the VMS.
That's a bold claim. They're vaguely similar, but that's all I see. The sun is quite generic.

Show me one other sun like that.
I posted half a dozen.. or am I missing something?

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - JustAnotherTheory - 08-10-2026

For info, this is the sun we are talking about (image by @Koen). You will do a great service to the community if you can show "a dozen more" like this.

   

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - DG97EEB - 08-10-2026

Ok.. my apologies.. I understand the issue .. then no, if we are including the rays, there's nothing else I've found...

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - gerrydelasel - 08-10-2026

The sun depicted with a star-like radiating pattern of lines or flames is a common theme in medieval art, we will inevitably find similar ones in multiple sources. Radiating symmetrical patterns are universal. Besides, the comparison posted by Koen is weak; the Taccola sun has lines radiating out from the center and no flames, whereas the VM has some flames and some sketchy lines that converge on the points of the star shape; the only common elements are 'sun face' inside a generic 8-pointed star border. The VM artist has drawn multiple flaming suns inside different star-shaped rosettes on other pages (f67 thru f69), do we ignore those for the convenience of the Taccola theory? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. even has green waterways to go with its suns. We see what we want to see.
       
         

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - Jorge_Stolfi - 08-10-2026

(07-10-2026, 10:17 AM)gerrydelasel wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(07-10-2026, 12:47 AM)Jorge_Stolfi wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. If so, it must have been just a "theoretical invention".  Such a siphon must be primed by filling it with water.  That would be tricky for a siphon of that size...
You bung both ends of the pipe, fill up the pipe by pouring in water at the apex, seal over the hole in the apex, then remove the bungs.
Yes, that is the trick.   But it is tricky for a siphon of that size, because the water pressure at the openings would have pushed out any bungs.  You need some contraption at each end that can close the pipe and withstand the pressure while the siphon is being filled.  And you also need an opening at the top that can be hermetically sealed, and a platform where people could stand while filling it (because the operation would have to be repeated periodically).   

Also the pipe must be substantially airtight and able to withstand the negative pressure that would be trying to crumple it.  And the siphon would not work if the height of the bridge exceeded 10 meters -- which would be the case if we took the the scale of the other details (ship, river width, town) literally.

I say that it is a "theoretical" invention because the drawing does not even hint at those necessary details.

(07-10-2026, 11:20 AM)Koen G wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Then let pipes be installed on the bridge. Let the intake of the rising pipe be smaller in length than the discharge pipe. Make the discharge pipe greater in length by an extra one-fourth.

This bit too is a bit suspicious.  

The key parameters are 
  • (A) the level of the water on the pool at the entrance side -- not the level of its opening there, which can be at any depth below the water; and 
  • (B) the level of the water on the pool at the exit side, if the exit opening is submerged,  or the level of that opening, if it is above water.  
Then B should be lower than A by some difference L.  The flow of water (volume per time) would be determined by L and the diameter of the pipe D.  

The explanation above seems to say that it is only the relative lengths of the two pipes that matter. (Could that be just bad translation?) 

Anyway the necessary level difference L is rather small and not related to the height of the bridge; and the explanation does not mention the diameter.   

Also note that the drawing labeled A by Koen shows the opening of the ascending pipe above the water level in the pool at left.  That would definitely not work; the opening must be submerged.  

As it stands, that explanation does not seem to be based on actual experience with such siphons.

All the best, --stolfi

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - Rafal - 08-10-2026

Could I ask for a thread split? We have gone a bit far away from almadels and magic altars  Smile

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - gerrydelasel - 08-10-2026

(08-10-2026, 10:57 AM)Jorge_Stolfi wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.which would be the case if we took the the scale of the other details (ship, river width, town) literally.
If you take the scale literally then that bridge is higher than a tower and could span an entire town. I also suggest a new thread.

RE: Rosettes as a ... magic altar - Koen G - 08-10-2026

(08-10-2026, 09:29 AM)DG97EEB wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ok.. my apologies.. I understand the issue .. then no, if we are including the rays, there's nothing else I've found...

No worries. There is something more though - it's subtle, but a crucial difference. Notice how both the Taccola sun and the VM sun aren't really suns? That is to say, they are more like rayed  medallions with a personification inside. It's not super clear at first glance, because in the VM the double band around the head is much wider and even has text inside. This kind of sun-as-personification is found more often in earlier centuries, that are still more indebted to classical models. And then resurging due to the influence of the Florentine renaissance. 

Several (not all) of the VM celestial faces are more like the personification type. They may have hair, a hairband, a chin/neck in three quarter view... They interrupt the idea of the sun disk itself having facial features, which would be the more common late medieval form.
(08-10-2026, 10:57 AM)Jorge_Stolfi wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As it stands, that explanation does not seem to be based on actual experience with such siphons.
Like I said, much in these inventors' books was highly conceptual and wouldn't work in reality. Taccola was not hired by the Emperor, after all Smile