+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion (/thread-5874.html)
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - DG97EEB - 01-08-2026
Nice finds.. I thought we'd seem quite a few Pisces in March recently, but the challenge was finding one that was Pisces first... And the second challenge is finding a split month.. on the latter, I'm sure I found one in a Sammelband, but at the time I thought it was well known, so ignored it and now can't find it.. I will look again..
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - eggyk - 01-08-2026
(01-08-2026, 05:50 AM)DG97EEB Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nice finds.. I thought we'd seem quite a few Pisces in March recently, but the challenge was finding one that was Pisces first... And the second challenge is finding a split month.. on the latter, I'm sure I found one in a Sammelband, but at the time I thought it was well known, so ignored it and now can't find it.. I will look again..
Right now there are only 3 entries on the sheet that 100% put pisces in march deliberately (marked in blue on the Imagery Categorisation sheet at the top). Pisces is often near march, or on the same page, but almost never actually deliberately placed as a header or a symbol for march. The only other example aside from the two in my post above is another very old calendar from the first half of the 13thC (unless I've missed one): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Koen G - 01-08-2026
One thing we must keep in mind is that "Pisces first" is part of the original design. However, the month mismatch is done by a later 15thC hand and may have nothing to do with the source MS.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - eggyk - 01-08-2026
(01-08-2026, 09:29 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing we must keep in mind is that "Pisces first" is part of the original design. However, the month mismatch is done by a later 15thC hand and may have nothing to do with the source MS.
However, if the pisces foldout had been the same size as f72 (only 1 page longer), there would have simply been room for an aquarius, making it a completely normal sequence. And/or room for capricorn on the recto, giving room for an unusual capricorn beginning sequence, too.
But speculating whether the pisces foldout could have ever been 1 page longer is a totally different topic, and I have no evidence that that was or could have been the case, so i'll just keep searching for both pisces first and capricorn first sequences. I've been checking for both for every entry, but I've found nothing certain so far for "pisces first" unfortunately.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Koen G - 01-08-2026
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
One folio (part of the Sagittarius-Scorpio bifolio) was cut out of the bound MS, at the end of the Zodiac sequence. In all likelihood, this one contained the two remaining signs. Of course, we may never be certain.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - eggyk - 01-08-2026
Here's an entry with a totally messed up sequence. I don't even have speculation to explain what happened here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1517AD, France, Paris
february - sagittarius
march - aries
april - taurus
may - pisces
june - cancer
july - leo
august - libra
september - capricorn
october - virgo
november - gemini
december - aquarius
january - N/A (not digitised?) - probably scorpio i guess
Like genuinely, it's not even a matter of pairs of pages being swapped accidentally, or even a constant shift. They are just shuffled at random.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - eggyk - 06-08-2026
Okay, I decided to bite the bullet somewhat and make some changes which should be helpful in the long term:
All entries on the 'Imagery Categorisation' page have now been colour coded or "tagged" with all of the contexts / works containing zodiac depictions found within them.
The works being tracked are:
- Monthly Rules (Discussing each month, along with the sign)
- Calendar (Table form)
- Planets
- Zodiac Section (Any section dedicated to the zodiac signs, which currently encompasses constellations)
- Zodiac Sign Man
- Zodiac Wheel
- Comets
- Other / Uncertain
Additionally, the following attributes are also being tracked and tagged for each entry:
- Monthly Labours
- Sunfaces / Moonfaces
- Eclipse Tables
- Other (herbal imagery, bloodletting, circle diagrams, or anything else mildly interesting)
For the additional attributes, don't take a red tag as a 100% guarantee there is nothing, it's just a marker indicating that I looked through the source and didn't see it.
Hopefully this will allow us to view the trends for certain works across time and locations, as well as seeing the copying process that went on for some of these depictions.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Koen G - 06-08-2026
It's going to be glorious when this all comes together! Or very confusing. One of those.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - R. Sale - 06-08-2026
There are various techniques in medieval art used to depict cosmic boundaries. Blue and white patterns, cloud bands, frequently based on nebuly lines are among the most common.
Cosmic boundaries are found in cosmic diagrams and in religious illustrations where deity is made manifest.
These illustrations show a wide range of artistic techniques for different manifestations.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Zodiac Imagery: Manuscript Collection/Discussion - Pierre Dumont Himself - 13-08-2026
Another dump, mostly non-manuscript stuff:
816 Leiden Aratea
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Early 13th century - Marble Zodiac, Battistero di San Giovanni, Firenze, Tuscan.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1207 - Twin zodiac at the Basilica di San Miniato al Monte
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1252–1284 - Lapidary of Alfonso X, King of Castille (around 50 signs)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1376 - Battistero di Padova - La creazione del mondo
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
15th century - Palazzo della Regione, Padova
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1437 - Torre dell'Orologio, Padua
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1445-1450 - BNF Français, 135, f. 285 (the Wikipedia zodiac)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1459-1463 - Madonna dello Zodiaco, Aquarius and Pisces
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1470 - De Sphaera (Virgo holding flower)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1470 - Salone dei Mesi, Ferrara
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1473 - Torre dell'Orologio, Mantua
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1497-8 - Torre dell'orologio, Venice
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1510-20 - Sala dello Zodiaco, Giovanni Maria Falconetto, Palazzo d'Arco, Mantua
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1547 - Torre dell'orologio, Brescia
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1550-1 - Sala dello Zodiaco – Palazzo Poggi, Bologna. The room is poorly preserved: only Gemini, Cancer, and Virgo survive.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1571 - Torre dell'orologio, Macerata.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1573-5 - Sala del Mappamondo di Palazzo Farnese (constellations)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1579 - Lorenzo Costa il Giovane - Volta celeste, Camera dello Zodiaco nel Palazzo Ducale di Mantova (constellations)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1583 - Orologio planetario Fanzago, Clusone, province of Bergamo
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1583-6, restored in 1786 - Torrazzo di Cremona
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
1596 - Torre dell'orologio, Trapani, clock with zodiac rediscovered in 2011
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.