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+--- Thread: f80r top nymphs (/thread-576.html)
RE: f80r top nymphs - MarcoP - 02-05-2016
I think that some of the details in Philomela's story fit well.
In particular, the fact that the arms of the woman are bound behind her back.
Of course, Ovid has a wide illustrative tradition that should be investigated (I attach a XVI Century engraving, but manuscript illustrations would be more interesting).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I proposed other stories that also appear in Ovid: Chloris and Zephyr (Fasti, V, 195 ff), Pluto and Proserpine (Metamorphoses, V, 341 ff).
I think it's good that there is some consensus about the scene including a rape and a spindle.
In my opinion, the labels near the figures are meant to be the names of the characters. When those labels will be matched with one of the many rape myths and stories, we will know that we have come to the correct interpretation.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
Quote:I think it's good that there is some consensus about the scene including a rape and a spindle.
Only in Voynich studies
But I agree. When various independent conclusions appear to be homing onto a similar target, that might be good news.
Interesting that you mentioned kidnapping winds as well. I just interpreted the two human figures on the "four winds" folio as the North wind deviating from his normal course to kidnap the woman of his love - which is kind of an epilogue to the Philomela story in the Metamorphoses.
The thing with Ovid is that he's written about so many stories and characters, so it might be a coincidence. Though I think it isn't, especially since you and others have pointed out Ovid's lasting popularity.
RE: f80r top nymphs - MarcoP - 02-05-2016
In my opinion, the main subject of the illustration is the bathing figure at the center.
Maybe something like this (Botticelli's Birth of Venus, proposed by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 2010). I think this myth also is discussed by Ovid, but I could not trace the specific passage.
![[Image: 450px-Sandro_Botticelli_-_La_nascita_di_...edited.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Sandro_Botticelli_-_La_nascita_di_Venere_-_Google_Art_Project_-_edited.jpg/450px-Sandro_Botticelli_-_La_nascita_di_Venere_-_Google_Art_Project_-_edited.jpg)
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
She does appear to have been constructed as the focal point of the series - for whatever reason.
Is she really bathing though? To me it seems as if she is rather standing on some kind of platform that's been covered with a blue carpet, including tassels. The main reason for this is that most bathing nymphs have their feet and legs covered with the water, while this one appears to be standing on the surface.
I would interpret this as the queen "holding court" and receiving the messenger. Her central position might relate to the "actual" layer of information rather than the mythological subject that's been overlaid as a mnemonic. But as long as we don't know what the actual layer of information is - or if there even is one - that's hard to demonstrate.
RE: f80r top nymphs - ReneZ - 02-05-2016
While the most indicative figure is the one on the right, with the hands (apparently) tied behind the back and a man standing by, this isn't really a highlight of the Philomela story. I wondered why I didn't remember it, having read quite a bit on Greek myths.
Reading up on it, I realised that there is one key aspect that *defines* the story of Philomela and Procne. Reading that aspect again, I did remember the myth.
This key aspect of the story (I wonder if there are volunteers suggesting what it should be, to see if my opinion is confirmed) is not represented in the images of f80r.
Thus, I am rather skeptical that these illustrations refer to this story...
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
I don't think any extremely important aspects have been omitted from this part of the story.
If I am correct that the ending is worked into the "four winds" folio, then one important scene is missing: where the women take revenge on the king by serving him some special meat.
The actual murder scene is omitted either way - there is no murder in the Voynich, it may be a bit of a taboo. Though you could argue that the cooking + serving scene is required.
Rene - is it possible to see which page would have been visible to the left of this one if no pages were in between? Like if you would hold the unbound sheet? I think that may be illuminating.
RE: f80r top nymphs - -JKP- - 02-05-2016
(02-05-2016, 11:58 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Rene - is it possible to see which page would have been visible to the left of this one if no pages were in between? Like if you would hold the unbound sheet? I think that may be illuminating.
Koen, this is a project I started some time ago and haven't had time to finish (I haven't double-checked any of the related sides to make sure I got them right) but for what it's worth, here's a visual of the arrangement of folio 80r:
![[Image: Quire80r.jpg]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Quire80r.jpg)
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
Hmm, is it possible that in some previous binding order it was visible next to this guy? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: f80r top nymphs - ReneZ - 02-05-2016
JKP, I think something went wrong there.
The arrangement of the bifolios can be seen here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(although a few of the folds may have changed direction).
In any case, 79 and 80 are one bifolio, so it is the same as presently visible in the MS.
79v is next to 80r.
The defining part of this myth, like the thread is for Ariadne, the swan is for Leda,
etc etc. is the story of her life woven into a piece of cloth, since she cold neither
speak nor write.
RE: f80r top nymphs - Koen G - 02-05-2016
Oh, the cloth. I think the weaving is alluded to in the spindle, and the cloth is shown when the messenger brings it up to the queen - the dramatic moment of the reveal. What I found the most striking is that the cloth actually shows a purple/red design on a white background, as mentioned by Ovid. The actual weaving is really only one sentence, followed immediately with the transportation by the messenger:
"...fastens her thread to a barbarian’s loom, and weaves purple designs on a white background, revealing the crime. She entrusts it, when complete, to a servant, and asks her, by means of gestures, to take it to her mistress. She, as she is asked, takes it to Procne."
![[Image: 3.jpg?w=720]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/3.jpg?w=720)
I think the narratives in these scenes may hold the key to rediscovering the original order of the folios. My initial analysis ended when Philomela told her sister about the king's deeds, and they came up with a plan for revenge. The next scene Ovid describes is found on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - she murders her son and puts his flesh in a kettle to boil. I think they chose the sentence "while he stretched out his hands, knowing his fate at the last, crying out ‘Mother! Mother!’" for the drawing. See Jasondavies You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. A pleading figure with arms outstretched, standing next to a cauldron. That means the original order would have looked like this: