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+--- Thread: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution (/thread-569.html)
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - david - 29-04-2016
Rotárum would be genitive plural, so of, or concerning, the wheels.
But
horoscopum habiturire de rotarum
I suppose horoscopum is supposed to be horoscope, which is actually a Greek Word. My dictionary gives genitarium for horoscope. Horoscopus is a medieval Latin word, but I don't know when it was first used. We learn something new everyday. What's habiturire? I assume it's a garbled declension of habeó, to have, but the -ire ending doesn't fit. It should be, ah..., habitúrórum to fit de rotarum.
So the sentence would read (aprox) the wheels possess our horoscopes.
A very quick back of the envelope job on the next lines:
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
uncertain time, obscure when uncertain
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.
dawn is opened, uncovered ??? (something golden?)
But I doubt the grammar on these lines, they seem a little... schoolboyish, if you take my meaning. Not that I'm an expert.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Anton - 29-04-2016
Well, I meant not You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. specifically, but the fact that daiin is the most frequent vord. So why such attention to the wheels?!
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Koen G - 29-04-2016
Yulia,
I see three problems so far:
1) This probably ties in to what JKP says: if you encode a Latin text into Voynichese using your method, the result contains a very large amount of highly exceptional internal word structures. Many exceptions can be found in the MS, but they are exceptions exactly because generally Voynichese words follow a certain structure. To put it in a more intuitive way, the sentence you created doesn't look like one that would be likely to appear in the MS.
2) My personal main problem is that there is little to no clear meaning to the resulting text (which is also spread across the labels then?). You could argue that it's a nonsense text or a highly metaphorical, "poetic" type, which is a possibility. In that case though, the fact that someone went through an immense amount of trouble to encode this already untransparant text, seems very unlikely. If you want to write nonsense, then why encode real words? And if your text is so unclear that nobody understands it anyway, why go through the trouble of encoding it?
To me there appears to be a certain contradiction between deciphering the text and looking for the best words on the one hand, and still turning up with something that makes little sense on the other.
3) I'm not sure yet to what extent there would be information loss when encrypting and/or decrypting using this system. It could perhaps work for cohesive, simple texts without too many "unknown" words like proper names. People can make up for some information loss when they can guess from context. But whether or not your method retains enough information on the kind of text you propose in your readings, I don't know.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 29-04-2016
(29-04-2016, 05:34 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It would be nice to make an English translation for those who are not very proficient in Latin.
daiin = de rotarum = "from the wheel"?
The necessary combination for translation: "de You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. hora" = "from the time/hour of changeable wheels". I'm not sure in the meaning and coherence of such combination, it just was the most acceptable variant of interpretations, the rest doesn't fit due to the rules of the Latin grammar. I only can assume that it means something like "from the time/hour of vicissitudes" = "de vicium hora".
I found only one example which may be close to this meaning:
" Inde rota incerta torquens fortuna favores obstitit inceptis: redierunt pristina fata." (The link - above)
daiin is the other word which I interprete as "triturum", "trituram", "traditibus" and, maybe, "teritorium". Of course, my "d aiin" could be "daiin", position of the letters here is unclear.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Anton - 30-04-2016
I mean that daiin is the most frequent word across the corpus. Neither of your suggestions seem a likely candidate for that role. If that's really a word, then that should be really some very common word as becomes to the opus of this kind. For example, it might be a word "plant" or "herb", given that a good half of the VMS is depicting plants, or it might be some general word like an article... but "territory'"... sorry, does not look convincing.
Triturum and trituram do not seem to be valid vord forms (if we mean the verb "trituro").
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 30-04-2016
(29-04-2016, 06:04 PM)david Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Rotárum would be genitive plural, so of, or concerning, the wheels.
But
horoscopum habiturire de rotarum
I suppose horoscopum is supposed to be horoscope, which is actually a Greek Word. My dictionary gives genitarium for horoscope. Horoscopus is a medieval Latin word, but I don't know when it was first used. We learn something new everyday. What's habiturire? I assume it's a garbled declension of habeó, to have, but the -ire ending doesn't fit. It should be, ah..., habitúrórum to fit de rotarum.
So the sentence would read (aprox) the wheels possess our horoscopes.
A very quick back of the envelope job on the next lines:
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
uncertain time, obscure when uncertain
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.
dawn is opened, uncovered ??? (something golden?)
But I doubt the grammar on these lines, they seem a little... schoolboyish, if you take my meaning. Not that I'm an expert.
The earliest mention about "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." I found for this evening is in the "Astrolabium planum" of 1494. "Habiturire" = to want to have, I agree it sounds strange, so, thanks to your question I found that I missed two possible interpretation: "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." and "ematuruero", while I'm not able to formulate how such forms could fit into this sentence, maybe (if "emutarere"), "you could be changed according to hour of vicissitudes..."
Possibly:
horoscopum habiturere de rotarum incertarum hora, incertum sortiturum aurora aperturum,
horoscope, to want to have/ to wish from the time of vicissitudes, uncertainty drawing lots opening with dawn,
inauratione exerturum.
releasing (detecting) with gilding ???
Actually, I incline to believe that "a" in the words "chear" and "cphar" may be "o", then it can be "cheor" (venturo, ventione) and "cphor" (alienatione, alienatur), in this case: "venturo aperturum, alienatione exerturum/efferaturum."
(30-04-2016, 12:03 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I mean that daiin is the most frequent word across the corpus. Neither of your suggestions seem a likely candidate for that role. If that's really a word, then that should be really some very common word as becomes to the opus of this kind. For example, it might be a word "plant" or "herb", given that a good half of the VMS is depicting plants, or it might be some general word like an article... but "territory'"... sorry, does not look convincing.
Triturum and trituram do not seem to be valid vord forms (if we mean the verb "trituro").
"trituram" - noun "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." (singular, accusative)
"triturum" - verb "tero" (Participium Futuri Activi, neuter or accusat.)
"tritorum" - noun "tritor" (plural, genitive), adjective "tritus" ( plural, genitive)
"traditibus" - noun and adjective "traditus" (dative, ablative, plural)
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - -JKP- - 30-04-2016
(29-04-2016, 07:04 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
100% fitting. Thanks. The last note after it, to the right - contrarie reducam.
In addition: I still have doubt concerning the words "aurora" and "inauratione" as they include a character which differs from usual "a", but, at the same time, it doesn't also look like usual "o". One more problematic place - "scrutatator" (syaiir). I can't decide for sure if this is one word or a few (s y aiir), in the case if there three separate words are presented, it could be read as "si cum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." likewise "si cum cras" and "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.".
I thought it might also be worthwhile to post one of the plants, since the content of a plant page (folio 18v) may differ from the first page (folio 1v). Since there are many alternates in this version, I found it difficult to fit the translation to the text, but at least the line beginnings are clear, so people can probably figure it out and hopefully will give you some feedback.
![[Image: YMTrans1v2016Aprb.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/YMTrans1v2016Aprb.png)
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Helmut Winkler - 30-04-2016
1) Horoscop* in various forms and meanings is an ancient word, in writers (mostly astrological) from Plinius to Manilius and Firmicius Maternus
2) The Latin is different from anything I have ever seen and I think I have seen everything and you find some very garbled texts in late Antiquity and the Late Middle Ages
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - Searcher - 30-04-2016
(30-04-2016, 12:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-04-2016, 07:04 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
100% fitting. Thanks. The last note after it, to the right - contrarie reducam.
In addition: I still have doubt concerning the words "aurora" and "inauratione" as they include a character which differs from usual "a", but, at the same time, it doesn't also look like usual "o". One more problematic place - "scrutatator" (syaiir). I can't decide for sure if this is one word or a few (s y aiir), in the case if there three separate words are presented, it could be read as "si cum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." likewise "si cum cras" and "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.".
I thought it might also be worthwhile to post one of the plants, since the content of a plant page (folio 18v) may differ from the first page (folio 1v). Since there are many alternates in this version, I found it difficult to fit the translation to the text, but at least the line beginnings are clear, so people can probably figure it out and hopefully will give you some feedback.
Thank you very much! Such presentation is really a good approach to studying. I'm just preparing to Easter which we celebrate tomorrow. I'll try to minimise alternates later. Working on texts without interruption, I often loop the same, so, fresh eyes are especially needed. Now I see that I've lost one word in the seventh line.
To the point, I didn't understand clearly from Latin texts, what the word "propium" is. Maybe, someone can clarify this point.
(30-04-2016, 02:32 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) Horoscop* in various forms and meanings is an ancient word, in writers (mostly astrological) from Plinius to Manilius and Firmicius Maternus
2) The Latin is different from anything I have ever seen and I think I have seen everything and you find some very garbled texts in late Antiquity and the Late Middle Ages
What is interesting is that this word appeared in the manuscript just once, if I'm not mistaken.
English version of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It likely means an Ascendant, at least, there. Look page 2.
RE: Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution - -JKP- - 30-04-2016
On the plant page (f18v) I was looking at the interpretations for some of the glyphs.
If I'm reading them correctly, you have interpreted the EVA-t (t) as follows:
Line 1: P, ?, b, p
Line 4: p
Line 5: B
Line 6: m, m/nim
Line 8: pl, plet (pleti, mot, moti)
Line 9: nim (pi), p
and the EVA-k (k) as follows:
Line 2: qu, qu, nic
Line 3: leg, leg, c (qu), loqu
Line 4: c, qu, c
Line 5: c, qu
Line 6: n, cret
Line 7: gn (leg), luc
Line 8: cr
Line 9: c (n, l), qu, n
Line 10: gel, cl
I've spaced out the lines a bit so it's easier to read, and given them numbers so they can be referenced:
![[Image: YMTrans1v2016Aprc.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/YMTrans1v2016Aprc.png)